On the Steps of 36
Episode 26: Lex Fefegha

Ryan Dillon:

Join us On the Steps of 36, a question-and-answer conversation that crosses the thresholds into the histories, lives, influences and stories of the person and figure behind their work. A podcast by AirAA at the Architectural Association.

Leela Keshav:

Hello and welcome to On the Steps of 36, a podcast by AirAA at the Architectural Association. Today we are joined by Lex Fefegha, a creative coder, artist and game developer.

His work explores alternative realities using experimental games, digital playgrounds, chatbots, and installations. He is a creative coder in residence at Google and founder of the Office of Art and Technology.

Lex participated in Disrupting the System, an event that was part of the series ‘Systems Overhaul: How Can Architecture Embrace AI?’ held at the AA in February 2025. Hello, Lex. Thanks for joining us today.

Lex Fefegha:

Thank you for having me. Thank you.

LK:

So we're just going to ask some questions about your life and your work, starting much more broadly and maybe getting a bit more specific as we go along. So just to start out with, can you tell me, what is your full name and what generation would you say you belong to?

LF:

Well, I think there's an actual full name on my passport, which is Alexander David Fefegha, but I tend to normally use Lex Fefegha. What generation would I say belong to? I would say I was born in the early 90s. So I'm a millennial. Is that how you say it? I pronounce it millennial.

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's what I would say I belong to.

LK:

Okay. What is something about you that you wouldn't usually include in your bio?

LF:

I was probably thinking about this, and I'm not. I don't actually know.

Maybe it might be something about, like, you know, once, you know, live the life of trying to do sports and pursuing a lot of that, you know, very sporty person, you know, pursued a lot of the very physical, rough sports like a rugby or an American football that you wouldn't, you know, necessarily associate with sitting on the computer all day and.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

You know, being a designer or writing code or doing all these different things, which is kind of like a completely different world.

LK:

Yeah. Cool. Do you still participate a lot in sport?

LF:

I had two spine surgeries, so. I got to be careful now.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

And stuff like that.

LK:

Yeah. Injuries can get intense.

LF:

Yeah.

LK:

Okay, we're gonna move on to your childhood. Can you tell me, where did you grow up?

LF:

So I grew up in Peckham. South London. Yeah. Southeast London and Peckham. And I say Peckham's reputation over the years is obviously due to, you know, gentrification.

Or, you know, it's evolved over time to be in a spot that people like, you know, people hang out, people have a nice, you know, drinks, parties, you name it. Where. Growing up, Peckham didn't really have that reputation like that so very much for a long time.

If people ask me where I'm from, I just say I'm from southeast London.

LK:

What kind of building did you grow up in?

LF:

So I grew up in a council flat, but it was actually a maisonette, you know, which was quite a nice, different experience.

You know, I did have a lot of more traditional council flats with multiple floors and stuff near me. But where I grew up in the building was a maisonette. And that was really cool.

LK:

Did you know your neighbours?

LF:

Actually, that's the only time in my life I ever knew my neighbours.

LK:

Really?

LF:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like I knew everybody from, like, it was like, one floor, and you kind of know everybody from the. Like, from.

From the one side to the other side. I think there was like, maybe five or six houses, but everybody knew everyone.

So I said that's the only time in my life that I actually ever knew my neighbours.

LK:

Yeah. Are you still in touch with any of those people?

LF:

If. I'll go to my. My grandma still lives there, so if I walk by, I might see them, if they're still there, and say, hi, how are you?

And some people moved away and, you know, you still. If you see each other, you might be like, yo, how are we here? And stuff like that.

LK:

Oh, nice. Do you think there's something about the architecture, the way that the building kind of works, that made it more congenial?

LF:

100 percent, like, I moved. I lived in Woolwich in the, you know, Royal Arsenal development.

And, you know, I remember living there, and I was like, I don't actually know who my neighbours are.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

Like, God forbid anything wrong was to happen to myself or to anyone here, you actually wouldn't know. But the way the houses are designed or the apartments and the doors and stuff, they're designed quite far away from each other.

So you don't necessarily actually have to interact with each other and stuff.

And I think that's obviously one of the pitfalls of, you know, of how, you know, creating this, the way how we now design buildings and spaces where maybe it's not really the emphasis might not be. It depends.

You do also have new developments where they're Also big on, like, having communal spaces, like a common and room, like, different stuff where people can mingle and interact with people in the same development and them. But I guess one of the challenging things is always going to be about, I don't know, space.

How do you attract a certain type of, you know, customer or resident that would live there?

LK:

So, yeah, yeah, no, for sure. This kind of goes back to maybe what you're talking about with your neighbours. But who are you close to or who inspired you as a child?

LF:

I'd say my granddad. He was, you know, he came from Nigeria. He first stopped by in, you know, America.

He got scholarships to study there, and then he went to study in Cambridge to do masters, and then he studied at SOAS, doing a degree in anthropology. And then he actually went back to Nigeria to go be a lecturer there.

LK:

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

LF:

And so for me, he definitely inspired me quite a bit in terms of, like, just that academic rigor and that interest in, you know, being able to engage in research or level of depth with, you know, things and stuff like that. And he's definitely something that, like, really inspired me.

LK:

Incredible. What is a belief that you held as a child that now seems strange or ridiculous to you?

LF:

I don't know if I have any belief that feels strange or ridiculous, but I used to. I think I maybe is. I don't know. I used to be very scared of pictures, but I still believe that pictures hold some sort of satin in them.

You know, pictures. Some of them just have Pearson eyes and they just look at you and stare. My grandma's living room, unfortunately, has so many pictures.

Like, it's a maximalist house that is not a minimalist house, like my grandma, basically, that should be featured in the film. The amount of, like, pictures he has all over the whole.

LK:

Pictures of people.

LF:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All over the room and stuff. But all you're looking at is eyes. I think when I was younger. Yeah, these eyes are moving, but, yeah, I don't know.

Maybe it's ridiculous.

LK:

No, I mean, when you put it that way, it does sound a bit scary. Have you been to the National Portrait Gallery? It's a lot about it.

LF:

Not for a while. I haven't been for a long while. But that's quite different, though, because you're kind of going in space, but it sounds like you're in your house.

They're there, just eyes just watching you. It just feels like 24 7, like a presence of just eyes.

LK:

Right. Hopefully they're kindly eyes of nice relatives and friends. Yeah, that's a good point.

LF:

Yeah.

LK:

What was a special place for you growing up?

LF:

I actually don't know. I was thinking about this. Yeah.

I just say that growing up in my area really of that era of Peckham, South London, it's obviously something now that at this age, you know, that type of play or that type of exploration maybe isn't afforded to us as we age and become adults. And we have to exist in a system which is built around work, pay your bills, be tired, go again, you know what I mean?

So I think just having that space around you to grow up, explore, ride your bike, find a different place, all of those things. I think just general. My area growing up was quite special to me.

LK:

Yeah. You mentioned how Peckham is gentrified so much. Are there any parts of Peckham that still kind of exist like you remember it as a child?

LF:

I would say like obviously majority of the parts of Peckham nuts gone through the change is more like the high street, the sort of Ry Lane station, the next in Peckham, Rice Station, that kind of strip, that kind of area. It's more. I don't know how to describe that.

Maybe that's more like Central Peckham, if you call it central Peckham in a way, if that's a natural thing. That's kind of been where a lot of the shift and changes happen.

And major majority of the places, you know, the estates, the houses, the residential areas still very much have maybe the same. They're still the same. You might have new build developments.

Maybe what might change is maybe you have different individuals or different folks or different, you know, people from different walks of life moving into the area now.

LK:

Right.

LF:

And stuff like that, which creates a new one. So I think for me to shift the Peckham changing. I guess for me I. There's two sides, right?

Where you see, okay, what happens, you know, you have increasing costs of living or rent or, you know, people being able to run or sustain a business. You know, maybe some people feel like they have to move out or displacement, you know, that's what, you know, negative side.

And then there's the side of some you grew up in, in this area where like for a long time it wasn't considered safe or for a long time your whole dream was to move out of the area. It was kind of like sign of like, okay, you made it in life because you've now moved out of Peckham and you've now got a house in Kent or something.

That was the way we used to speak.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

When I make it, when I Make it.

LK:

When I make it really interesting.

LF:

And then, you know, you go into the place of work and then people are telling you, like, yeah, I just bought a house in Peckham. Right. You know, I just moved into this particular part of Peckham and then I'm like looking at people and I'm like, what the heck?

Oh, like, you know, and it's funny because obviously they only have the context of what they have at that time. And their context is, oh, here's this lovely place. It's nice. It's cool.

We've got this nice, you know, flat, you know, where for me it's like I could tell you 10 different 15 stories. You know, I've got my context, which is not as exciting as it is. So that was an interesting contrast for me over time.

LK:

Yeah, for sure.

LF:

You know, I think I've also, you know, as much as benefited, I've also been negatively affected by the gentrification Peckham in terms of now the rent. So you can't buy a house, there's too expensive, you know. Yeah, all those different things.

But I've also benefited because my area also now has things to do. You can literally walk, go down the road and have a good time on a Friday night. You know what I mean? So.

LK:

Right. So you, you did return to Peckham.

LF:

No, I haven't. No.

LK:

Okay.

LF:

I wish. But I do go there from time to time. I might go there, you know, there's Prince of Pekham, you know, and there's like loads of different stuff there.

LK:

Moving on to some questions about your work. I know you came to the AA to speak about your work recently, but maybe if you could just give us a brief overview about what you do.

LF:

I guess most of my days right now is, you know, making games.

Those games are involving some concept of like maybe some untold history, some untold story, some untold narrative or unseen narrative or unseen perspective or just the perspective that people don't really know about. And then, you know, using games as like a mechanic or a medium to get people to play, learn stuff, interactive things and stuff like that.

So a lot of my. That's kind of the way how I might describe my work in the summary.

LK:

Super interesting. How do you find these kind of untold stories or topics of interest?

LF:

I guess, you know, they're quite easy because I feel like the mainstream very much has a very nuanced or very particular perspective of the world.

And I guess for me a lot of the times just you know, me coming to TA in a perspective of Peckham, South London, you know, from, you know, maybe from the music side of stuff or its origins, you know, there's things you can kind of talk about which is a different story or different perspective, you know, which. And then you have to think about, like, how does this make sense?

You know, some of the projects I've done in the past is one of them is the hip approach you bought, which was trying to show the relationship between hip hop and technology and how, like, hip hop success has become also goes hand in hand.

There was this rise of sophisticated computer technologies and stuff and how that enabled, you know, the music experience to be, you know, enhanced and stuff. And that's an example or like, you know, one, you know, worked on a project with an artist and designer and architect at Google.

His name is called Yinko Laurie. And, you know, he worked with Google on this game called Dreaming Flamingos.

And the whole idea was, you know, he brought a physical park back to life in the borough of Barking and Dagenham. And the whole idea was we were going to create his first interactive digital artwork.

But also the artwork is framed as like a game, a narrative, experimental game where you have to go around this park and answer riddles based on African proverbs, African parables, and every riddle you answer allows you to bring parts of the park back to life and stuff like that. And that was almost taking that, what he had done in the physical space, but it's just bringing that to the digital world.

So, you know, projects vary and differ depending on, you know, the ideas you have in mind at that time and if you have the space to create it.

LK:

Yeah, that's really fascinating. Yeah. I'm so curious between this link between kind of storytelling and game design and what do you think is the potential of games or like.

Yeah, what kind of do games lend to storytelling and kind of interactive storytelling?

LF:

Yeah, I feel like, you know, games is an interesting medium because they are like, you know, you know, we have range of so much different games, I think sometimes because of what we might see in public, most public discourses, like the, what you call the triple AA games, your big, massive games that have millions of budget behind them that would be similar to, like film budgets.

And then they come out on, like, the popular game consoles or, you know, via Steam and stuff, you know, like a, you know, Grand Theft Auto, for example, that's, you know, a massive game that has tons of budget.

And, you know, Grand Theft Auto, for example, you know, they've recreate cities literally they, you know, I literally watched a video yesterday on YouTube, watch two videos on YouTube, actually, which was by the same, you know, YouTube creator. And he was looking at what game does the best New York best, or what game does the best LA best. And what he was like, okay, I'm gonna do.

I have 15 tasks I'm gonna try to do in each of these games, and I'm gonna see if I'm able to do these things, you know, like, you know, like, drive underneath the Santa Monica Pier or I think go to Statue of Liberty. And the two games that won both times was GTA San Andreas, which is the game that came out, like 2004.

And that was a game that was centred around Los Angeles in the 90s, featured a black character and that recaption of LA. And then the other game that won this was the next edition after that game, which was GTA. I said, no, no, it wasn't San Andreas that won.

It was GTA 5 that won this one. And then the one that won the New York Best was GTA 4.

So, you know, Rockstar Games, as a game company, have been pretty good at recreating these cities or these. And then maybe particular buildings that are iconic. They might change the design of it or change the name just because of likeness and.

But they, you know, have really big budgets and they can really tell, too interesting stories. But then you have, like, really interesting indie games.

One of them in particular that comes to mind is Paper Please by a developer, solo developer, called Lucas Pope. And Papers Please is. You are almost like a.

It's like immigration stimulator game where you have to kind of sign people in certain countries, I mean, into this country, but each ballot at the same time, you have to feed for yourself. And then it takes you on a whole kind of crazy storytelling journey, but also puts you in this moral ethical dilemma constantly.

And thinking about things and thinking about those stuff, and that's completely. You got this very big, immersive world experience where many developers, designers, recreate models, all of this stuff.

And then you've got this game on the other side, which is like very, like 2D, you know, elements and stuff in there.

And it also can tell such a valuable story, probably even tells even better story than the game with the budget, you know, with the massive budget, you know, and Papers Please as a game, actually did really well. I think it sold millions of copies for a solo developer and stuff, which is a dream that a lot of solo developers wish to have.

You know, you can create something, you know, that's interesting and it has a really lovely storytelling experience.

So for me, where like for my focus and my practice is actually more to go down inspired by people like Lucas Pope, where they have this narrative storytelling experience, but they also have an interesting way of how they try to get the player to play with that. But I also do love those big, massive, super immersive games as well.

So, you know, games is a medium that you can kind of have, you know, you can have a menu and kind of pick onto your plate what you exactly want to have, you know, at different times and stuff. So that's why I like it a lot, because of that medium, you know, and it doesn't have to be the same thing. It could be necessarily anything for sure.

LK:

Yeah.

That's so fascinating that different kinds of stories lend themselves to different formats of games and you can achieve so much with actually very little potentially. Did you always play a lot of games? Did you kind of always know that this was a route that you wanted to go down?

LF:

No, not really. Like as I mentioned in our question. What question was that? That was question.

No, that was the second question which was like, what's something about you that you wouldn't include in your bio? My whole life was sports, right? You know, I knew that.

LK:

Different kind of game.

LF:

Yeah, yeah, it sure is a different type of game. Yeah, you're right. But I knew that like my whole hope half of my life was going to be sports.

It was going to be athletics, it was going to be being performing in sports performance.

Whether I was an athlete or whether I played a supportive role in that, you know, kind of either that, you know, I was really interested in like sports psychology or strength and conditioning science or strength and conditioning. Sorry, in general. And that was what I thought I was always going to do. And then through like life journeys, you just.

Somehow I just ended up first making websites, designing websites. And then I was like, I'm kind of bored here. I need something a bit more kind of like interactive or more kind of things.

And then over time, it's like a whole world opened up for me and then inspired me quite a bit. And I guess, you know, I gravitate to more games. Is that same thing which I mentioned. It's just the different ways of how you can tell a story.

The way you have to think about, you know, you need a mechanic, a core game mechanic which is, you know, the rules or the laws of this game. I need this mechanic. But I have a goal, I have an agenda, I have maybe a story. How do I Bring all three together.

How do I create this world that doesn't exist? That doesn't exist right now, but how do I, you know, it's kind of that space where you can kind of.

It's that world of like, it's like an artistic, experimental kind of space where you can kind of dream a little and kind of, you know, create a lot more things. And I think for a long time I was inspired by like looking at like architects and stuff.

And the times was just the way how they, you know, some architects talk about buildings or they talk about space or they talk about, you know, how light needs to enter a particular building. And playing around with all of these different things, materials, shapes, you know, all of that different type of stuff.

And obviously working on more this digital side at the time, you know, where it's like 2D interfaces or if you're designing apps or websites, very much have a very homogenous, very uniform type look and style, which is kind of driven by maybe Apple or Google in general, with their particular, like, design systems that they kind of say this is how apps should be designed. So there's very standardized way to design apps and stuff.

If you look at an app over time or different apps, you can kind of see they follow very similar things. Where from?

You know, if you're trying to create a game, one of the things about that is depending on what you're doing, the style, the vibe, everything can change. I recently worked on what I call an invention workshop game called Sparky with Google Arts and Culture.

And you know, Sparky is basically, you have three challenges and you basically get to make whacking inventions using everyday objects.

And at the end of it, the AI system learns about your way of creating, your way of inventing, and then tries to match you with an event to auto ego that's based on the Google Arts and Culture archive.

So they have, you know, they have Google Arts and Culture, have a nonprofit team in Google, you know, and they have partnerships with like museums, cultural institutions, artists, and so much more. And so they have, you know, access to that archive. And it's like, how do you tell stories about inventors, but how do you make that interesting?

And it's like everyday objects, like, you know, a kettle and a rocket. What could you do if you had a kettle and a rocket?

And you could combine that and turn that into something, you know, for food or something, you know, even if it's crazy, it's wacky. How do you, you know, dream and stuff? And that visual design of Sparky is Very much like it's.

Originally, the whole idea is people sketch what's a sketch? And then the AI would identify your sketch.

But one of the hardest things at the time was, like when we were play testing was how do you use people prompting on what to sketch, Especially when it's solo game. I think sometimes maybe it's different if you're playing other people in a space and people can sketch.

So what I did was I changed that and like, okay, let's treat this as a sketchbook. So it looks.

So the interface looks like an actual sketchbook where you've got paper stuck into, you know, like an idea tin and everything looks like paper and stuff like that. And then the objects are done in the form of stickers.

So if you were to put stickers in your book or something, that was the whole idea, you know, put a sticker there and then you combine it and create stuff. You know, I don't think if anybody uses it, people are going to look at it and go, oh, it looks like maybe they would. I don't know.

I actually have no clue. But no, no, I think people praise the design. People praise the visual design. So something very.

But that whole interface, that design was, you know, you know, was to be. Give that, like, feel. Yeah, that's like very similar to like, you know, you know, an architect, you know, you know, and having that space.

And so for me, I kind of like that realm of creating things to tell stories.

LK:

Yeah, super cool. And it is so interesting that you kind of switched paths from sports to game design.

I wonder, do you ever find any parallels with your kind of sporting life or do you see it as kind of two distinct.

LF:

I think part for me, you know, trying to pursue, you know, a lot of my time trying to play sports is it's a discipline, right? You learn a lot of discipline. You learn the importance of being disciplined. Why?

Discipline in different ways can help you achieve particular opportunities. And I think for me, that discipline is very important.

You know, when you're trying to work on an ambitious, scary idea or project where, like, maybe it hasn't been done in this way before and you're trying to figure it out and it's like, okay, you're under pressure, you have to deliver. People are expecting you to deliver something. And being disciplined and being focused on how do we get from A to B? What do I need to do to get there?

How do I level up? Maybe my skills.

You know, I think when you're working with tech, you know, digital, you know, things new technologies are Involved in this new programming languages, they're new programming frameworks, all of these different things that can pop up every time.

And then sometimes you have to ask yourself, do you try out this new shiny thing or do you be disciplined and focused on, you know, what works, you know, what does stuff and create stuff?

So I think for me, you know, where a lot of that work ethic and stuff, a lot of it comes from that thing of like, you know, sports and things where I think I approach my work in that same particular way.

LK:

Really interesting. And that makes a lot of sense. If you could change your field of work, what would you do instead? You've already been through one change. I don't know.

Would you.

LF:

I'll make music.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

Yeah.

LK:

Okay, cool. Is that something that you already do in your own time?

LF:

I tried when I was younger. Like, you know, it's just how people do, you know. I feel like everybody probably had one, maybe had a music.

Yeah, yeah, I probably make music, to be fair.

LK:

Does music feature in your games? I know you mentioned the hip hop game.

LF:

That's a hip hop. Hip hop definitely was, you know, music orientated. That's all about music. There was projects where they've got, like, Dreaming Flamingos.

It's a musical game, you know, which is nice to be a part of that. When I.

When I jumped and working on that project, my colleague Chris, she had already done a lot of stuff around those things, and I just came at the last kind of bits to, you know, give the project a narrative and put perspective. But there, there's music in that, which is really, really, really, really cool.

I do want to do more stuff in music, sound design and things like that. I feel like I'm just slowly, like, building up to those sort of, like, you know, experiences and stuff like that.

LK:

Yeah. Amazing. Yeah, it sounds like it's something you could definitely weave in more in the games. What is the space in which you work?

LF:

Like right now?

LK:

Yeah,

LF:

you know, I've. I've just been moving back to London from Margate.

LK:

Okay.

LF:

Because I moved to Margate for, you know, I tried to do the seaside life, which is actually. It's really cool. I think the thing was I spent so much time on the road or traveling and doing stuff that.

Yeah, Margate afterwards, like, if you need to get the Heathrow and you're not driving not even way, you. If you want to get some Heathrow for Margate, you'll go Margate to Kings Cross. Kings Cross, the Heathrow, you know, that's heading.

Or you'll get to Margate the day before. You fly, you sleep. It just gets crazy. So you know where I'm in Margate, I had, you know, my own separate studio home.

Studio space where now moving back to London is unfortunately downsizing.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

So stuff will be in the bedroom. Like it would be like my most homework space. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then the bed would be behind, which is not something I personally don't like to have my sleeping and working in the same space, but because the living room is. It's decent size, but it's not enough to like have tv, sofas and all of this stuff in the same place.

LK:

So do you have quite an elaborate tech.

LF:

Well, I have an auto ride monitor and I have, you know, not really elaborate. You know, I think I just have a laptop that plugs into ultrawide monitor.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

A nice fancy gaming keyboard. Nice, you know, mouse pad. I got a refurbished. Is it. I don't want to pronounce this Aaron Miller chair.

LK:

Okay. Yeah. Nice.

LF:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was refurbished.

LK:

It was referred.

LF:

I gotta make the furious point, Claire. But yeah, so that's it. Yeah, my setup's not really that crazy. Just give me a monitor.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

I didn't consider buying like a. A PC. I still want to have a. Build a PC or stuff. I just need to have more time.

LK:

Yeah, I get that gamer aesthetic going. You mentioned traveling around a lot. Was that work related?

LF:

Yeah, yeah. A lot of my travel is very much work related.

LK:

Okay. Is that still something that you do or?

LF:

Yeah, yeah. I'm about to travel next week to Lisbon and Amsterdam in the same week because I have to do public facing stuff.

I do a lot of public facing stuff at the same time, so.

LK:

Oh, nice. Yeah. The mobile workspace. Is there a particular book that has had a significant impact on the way you approach your work?

LF:

It's interesting. It depends. I feel like there was a book that did inspire my thinking at one point.

The book was called Speculative Everything by Anthony Dunne and Fiona Raby. This book in particular is about talking about the practice of speculative design or design fiction, depending what school of thought you come from. Design fiction is just, you know, the whole narrative or the concept around Raby and Anthony Dunne's kind of work was thinking of design.

Is design is primarily used for commercial marketing activities. What if you use design as more of a tool for, you know, speculation or, you know, think or thinking, critical analysis.

Basically creating, you know, artifacts and objects that are not for the purpose of consumption but more to critique or critique the world around us? You know, so you're not making maybe respect to design or design.

Fixing the principle isn't to make prototypes that you are now, you know, make commercial product, but maybe you make this thing to be like, you know, our relationship with our phone, for example, so intimate, you know, this thing I've made maybe wants us to question that or challenge that or critique that or allow people to engage with that and ask questions about stuff. And I'd say that definitely influenced me. I think that was funny enough. I think there was, actually.

When we maybe link it to architecture, I actually think there was an architectural firm in the 60s that did this as well. I forgot the name. I want to say Super Studio, but it might be so wrong. So I don't want to say that name.

But there was also an architecture studio in the 60s that also had that same type of provocation or speculation about building space. All of this stuff.

LK:

Yeah. It sounds like it might have been Super Studio. Yeah. Okay. Really cool.

Is there one device you could invent that would aid your work and the world around you?

LF:

Cloning myself.

LK:

Cloning yourself, yes. Oh, okay. Why?

LF:

There's not much. 24 hours in a day.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

And if I had another version of me, I think I would be more better.

LK:

Or maybe would your second version be doing a similar thing? Or would it be like. There'd be one, like, relaxing Lex and one working Lex.

LF:

We would take Rose. Yeah, we'll switch rows.

LK:

Okay.

LF:

Yeah, we'll have a rotor.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

Like one of you, or technically. Or just a device that improves sleep, makes it easier for you to sleep, but you actually sleep and you can actually feel truly rested.

LK:

Yeah. A way to recharge, like you actually feel. Yeah. Yeah, I'd love one of those as well. A few questions about architecture.

Can you tell me where you live now? You said you're moving back to London?

LF:

Yeah, moved back to London. So I moved out to Margate. To the seaside?

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

You know, to try and see if I was made for the slow life.

LK:

And you weren't.

LF:

I'm not made for the slow.

LK:

Maybe in retirement.

LF:

Yeah. Margaret's a beautiful place, though.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

You know, it's a beautiful place. And, you know, you got to see it's slow. It just forces you to be still.

LK:

Yeah. I did hear a lot of people were moving there from London. Were you part of that kind of movement?

LF:

Shoreditch on Sea. That's what I've heard it's called Shoreditch on Sea. That's what I've heard it's called. Yeah. But I've seen it whenever an article showed. It's on sea.

No, it was really nice. Slow, peaceful still. It's quiet. It's very quiet.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

Ain't got the craziness of London, you know, But I think it requires you. I think. I think at the point of my career, where I'm at right now, I think it's one of those things that's like.

Margate is a lovely place where I would generally could live there.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

For the rest of my life. But I'm very much at the point in my life where, like, I'm just.

LK:

Yeah, it sounds like you have a lot going on.

LF:

You know what I mean?

LK:

So you mean the busyness of London.

LF:

Yeah, I'm addicted to it, unfortunately.

LK:

Is there one hidden building or space that you would recommend to visit in, let's say, Margate?

LF:

Oh, God.

LK:

Where did you like to hang out in Margate?

LF:

I can't snitch on this one.

LK:

Oh, okay. It's too secret.

LF:

It's not secret, but it's like, you know, obviously Margate's this east side town. It has beaches and stuff.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

There's the tourist side of the beaches.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

And then there's a part of the beaches which locals. Locals know. You know what I mean? So.

LK:

Okay, you don't want people to start swarming there.

LF:

You know what I mean? Because it's.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

I ain't trying to be a gatekeeper, but.

LK:

Okay. Okay, that's.

LF:

It's a nice.

LK:

Let's not ruin it.

LF:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry.

LK:

Secret beach. If you could live in any building in the world, which one would you choose to inhabit?

LF:

I don't know. I think I would. I would have liked to have understood what it would have been like to live in Central London.

The central London is even such a big part. It's so big. Like, what. What part of central London would I actually like to live in? I actually don't. Let me think. I don't know, like, somewhere like.

I would. I would like to. I think there's more an area for me. I would love to have lived in, like, actual central London. Like.

LK:

Yeah, like zone one.

LF:

Like zone one.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

Funny enough, the thing about the way, how TFL has done these zones, you know, like a Packham could be zone one. Because I lived in Elephant Castle for a bit and that people consider Zone one, but I see that as South London. Yeah.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

Elephant Castle was a good distinction, but, yeah, more central. I would love to see what's like where, you know, the AA is just like five Minutes walk away from a house.

LK:

Yeah. Peak busyness.

LF:

Yeah. I mean, like, what would that be like, you know.

LK:

Yeah, yeah. If you could visit one piece of architecture that no longer exists, if you can think of one, what would it be?

Or maybe even like a place that no longer exists or has changed.

LF:

Obviously, you know, coming from a West African, you know, come from a Nigerian heritage and background, you know, you know, kingdoms or, you know, particular old, you know, kingdoms were obviously destroyed by, you know, colonialism and, you know, and stuff like that.

So, you know, if I could go back, it would be to visit like, for example, those particular, you know, like you haven't been in where you had, you know, this really. The road, the palace and they had a lot of these really structured. The walls have been in the great wars have been in, like.

I would love to go see what that looked like, how life looked like at that time.

What was their viewpoints, what was their perspectives and you can kind of, you know what I mean, be there and see it and feel it and understand the world at that time.

LK:

Yeah. Incredible. It's definitely not the same thing. To go to the British Museum, see the stolen goods.

What is a particular landscape or outdoor place that is meaningful for you?

LF:

I don't know. I don't actually have one.

LK:

The secluded beach at Margate.

LF:

Well, I think, you know, if you think of it right, we live in a concrete jungle in London, so we don't really get to spend. You know, it's not like the River Thames is. There's a river which is endorsed for us to go and jump inside and you know, we don't have.

We might have, like. We don't have a beach. We have. There's a bit where like if the tide is down.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

It's kind of sandy by the River Thames. If you're walking by the south bank, it's a low key kind of.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

One.

LK:

But is there an outdoor space in London? I don't know, park or anywhere maybe where you grew up that you particularly liked? No. You're more of an. Are you more of an indoor person?

LF:

Yeah, yeah.

LK:

Building person.

LF:

Yeah, I'm in my house.

LK:

Yeah, I'm home, buddy.

LF:

But I would say. I would say. I would say beaches. Beaches for me or like sea. I think I remember once when. I don't know, I think I was just.

I was in Nice and I sat there and I saw the sunset and I just sat there and watched the sunset and I was just like, wow. Sometimes you don't just have the time. Many of us don't have this space or this. The calmness to just sit there and just watch the sunset.

So that's like something I can. That definitely was meaningful to me, you know, watching the sunset and it was just a beautiful sunset and.

LK:

Yeah, that sounds lovely.

LF:

Just be still.

LK:

Yeah, nice.

If you could remove a piece of architecture or let's say art or even a popular video game maybe from its pedestal, what would you choose to replace it with?

LF:

I'm not sure. It's not really removing. I think for me, you know, generally when we think of buildings, artwork, book, or this concept of popular culture, right. And we frame these things why it should be important or iconic.

It's, you know, based on a bunch of different opinions or tastemakers or people who shape a perspective and then make this viewpoint on why this thing should exist, you know, why this thing should be popular or iconic.

I think for me, the only thing I can ever really say is just more like how, you know, how other things or other things are not untold can be given that significance or that praise or that in a particular thing, which is some of the things that, you know, some of the work I've tried to do in the past has been about like, you know, it's just showing that relationship, you know, amazing pressure.

But it wasn't only just that relationship with hip hop and technology, but it was also this, like, how do you give this appreciation to hip hop as a poetic art form?

For example, like, you know, where it's, you know, it, you know, some of these people, some of these, I think, you know, I think because of the way of the image that rep sometimes displayed with which is like shiny chains, very boring lyrics, drugs. But they are like, you know, rappers who have been artists who care about the lyrics, the artistry, the sounds, everything comes together.

The way how they create a rhyme and pattern, the way how they want to tell a story. The way all of these things come together and, you know, really showcase. And that was definitely very important for me or wanted to showcase that.

Like, how could that be appreciated from. From an art perspective from a, you know, rather than not just listening to the music by consumption, but also this artistic appreciation.

The same way we would revere another book or something or manuscripts that we would put in the museum, for example.

LK:

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. More about adding stories to the conversation and making things more visible. Yeah, definitely.

I have a few questions about culture what do you consider to be your perfect meal?

LF:

I'm going to say jollof rice, which is a type of West African rice which is made, you know, you basically. How do I simplify this? You make a stew. You take white rice, you, you blend this large tomato paste slash stew.

I'm gonna get this wrong, I forget, you know, and you basically have to cook the rice in it and then over time with all the know, other ingredients and all these other things, you. The rice changes texture, becomes quite red, it changes taste and it has a particular thing. It's actually, you know, sounds delicious.

Yeah, it's an art form to make.

LK:

Have you made it yourself?

LF:

Yeah, yeah, I've made it myself. I made a big one, really big pot and my grandma was proud.

So, you know, and I say chicken, I say chicken, I say beef, you know, you know, or something like that. That works, is my perfect meal.

LK:

If you were to recommend a non-architecture book to architects, what would it be?

LF:

It will probably be a book on like, I think it would be Speculative Everything, you know, But I think architects are good at speculation in general though. I think in thinking about futures and thinking about what could we have in the future.

So I think maybe, you know, but maybe, you know, did the reason why that or I like that book or books that encourages designers in general to be critical or to think of the world critically is something that maybe I would suggest just to understand the world we're building and shaping.

LK:

Yeah, no, it sounds like a really relevant book and I think maybe we don't talk about design as fiction as much as we could. Yeah, so I really liked that reference. What was the last cultural event that you attended?

LF:

Well, I went to watch the film Sinners.

LK:

How was it?

LF:

It's really good, you know, came out in cinema. Ran Kugler, who's, you know, directed films like Black Panther.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

Creed, you know, and Sinners, which is based on, you know, the Mississippi South. And it's a really interesting, interesting.

It's got so much elements, really good, interesting storytelling and I think, yeah, I think Ryan Coogler is a good storyteller and you know, Sinners is bringing people out to go to December right now. I think he basically did like a 10 minute video of him talking about different film strips and how he shot different stuff.

And one of the things was like, he was like, it's best for people to do it on Imax. He did this for like Kodak because I think he filmed it with Kodak film strips and they were doing like A let's do this video.

Talk us through how you shot the film. But I think it was one of the best marketing things for a film ever. I don't think they even realized it was gonna sing.

But the thing about Ryan was that he's so good at like taking somebody who has no understanding about film and taking them on a journey of like, here's the different types of strips, here's the different type of like shots that you can get when you film in this way. This is how we did it. And it like literally was like, oh, people are going to watch it and stuff and then things like that.

So yeah, yeah, that's that. That's the last cultural event I can say I attended.

LK:

What TV show have you most rewatched, if any?

LF:

I haven't rewatched. I have.

LK:

Not a TV watcher.

LF:

I have such a good memory. No, I have such a good memory that it would be hard for me to rewatch.

LK:

Oh, okay.

LF:

Stuff like I can remember seeing my scene.

LK:

You just get bored. But what's. Do you have a favourite TV show or one that you really like?

LF:

Well, my favourite TV show that I really liked is the Wire, which was, you know, HBO series that came out in the. I would say, you know, and then 2000s and it was about. Based in the city of Baltimore and it wasn't. It became a cult hit over time.

When they made it, it wasn't. I think it lasts like five seasons. When they made it, it wasn't like, oh, wow, everybody's loving it.

But the reason why I like it is because of, you know, the writers who wrote that Wire or the screen runner. They worked in the area of Baltimore. They had worked around crime and understanding things. And one of them was a crime writer already.

And they wrote this thing where centring the city of Baltimore and the different challenges it has. And each season focuses on a different side of things. And it's quite a nuanced, almost like documentary through former series of life in Baltimore.

LK:

Okay.

LF:

You know, from like buildings, architecture, you know, that relationship with, you know, all of these different things coming together that, you know, nowadays you don't actually have the grace to kind of create, you know, stuff like that anymore. But you can really take the time, develop a world in a way. I really like stuff that has this level of world building.

LK:

Yeah, yeah.

LF:

So yeah.

LK:

How interesting. But it is. It's based on kind of current day reality or is it speculative?

LF:

Yeah, yeah.

LK:

Sounds really interesting. What music, if any, do you listen to when working?

LF:

I think I repeat the same live music performance. Sometimes when working, that's where I repeat quite a lot. I repeat. I repeat music more than I repeat anything.

It could be live performances mostly of, like, artists who are singing. Like, for example, James Blake, you know, he has an art. He has a performance from 2013, and I like that album.

I like his first two albums quite a lot. And so I watched that sometimes. Or there is Sampha. He has a performance that he did, I think, in the summer. I kind of played that quite a bit.

There's another artist called Samora Pendicus, who's not as big as the other two I've mentioned. Yeah, but he, you know, does jet. He's. He does a lot of live performances, and he has one where he's performed in orchestra. I like to listen to that.

Sometimes I go look at jazz stuff, live jazz stuff. Like, I might repeat a performance. There's a, you know, pianist called Robert Gasper, and he does a lot of stuff and.

And the whole North Sea Jazz Festival. And then sometimes I might listen. So it's very much like a. I don't know, it's like a soul jazz kind of R B, S. Yeah.

LK:

Sounds great. What draws you to listening to live recordings rather than, say, a special Spotify album?

LF:

That's a good question. Because I think, like, live performances, you know, you're gonna get. It's a profession. I think it sounds different. It obviously sounds different.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

I think sometimes artists, you know, when you think of it, some. Some artists, when they perform live, will perform their song differently than maybe how they perform.

You know, I mean, sometimes they might add a little thing. They might add something, and you just hear a different kind of sound and stuff. I do love a lot some of the NPR tiny desk stuff as well.

Sometimes they're a bit too short because then it's like 20 minutes long. 15. Then you have to now find another.

LK:

It's a good way to find out about artists as well. Yeah, that's really cool. What's the first piece of music that really impacted or resonated with you?

LF:

I think it's going to be gospel music. I was raised in, you know, a family of. I was raised in the family of likes like pastors or reference. And, you know, my granddad was also a reverend.

Some of my family members were also pastors. So the first piece of music that was very much exposed in my house was gospel music in general.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

My first CD album was one of an artist called Kurt Franklin. And so that resonated me quite, quite well.

LK:

Do you still listen to gospel music? It's still part of your life? Yeah.

LF:

Yeah.

LK:

Cool. What is the last post you made on social media and on what platform?

LF:

I honestly don't remember.

LK:

I don't remember.

LF:

I don't think I made a post.

LK:

Are you active on social media?

LF:

I have a Twitter. I have an Instagram. I might post on my stories or something.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

But on my Twitter, I don't know. I think I post up football stuff sometimes. Most of the time.

LK:

Okay. So you use it more for kind of personal life rather than work or both.

LF:

This area, like, you just find the algorithm half of the time in it. So. Yeah, I just post wherever I really. On Twitter, I just kind of post whatever I really want to post. Really?

Instagram a bit more like, more curated in terms of what I might post on my profile or what I might share. Yeah, my Instagram just shows heavily worked.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

Nothing else, Right? Yeah, that's because it's got so much eyes and people just watch your shit.

LK:

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there's pressure, especially if you're kind of an artist, to just use it as a portfolio or something.

Do you think any of your work or storytelling has some kind of political ambition or moral ambition? And if so, what might it be?

LF:

Thank you for that question. I think everything we do in some way, shape or form is in a political. I think I can't deny the impact of politics in my life.

The impact of politics and how I see the world, the impact of politics and how I shape things. You know, I'm engaging with topics or interests or stuff that share different perspectives.

I'm trying to show a relationship of hip hop and technology. That's a genre of music that has had a lot of political censorship or something. For example, you know, I've worked on projects in the past.

One of them was called the Invisible Mask, and I made that for Mozilla. The creators of the Firefox browser, they have a foundation that's focused on how do you make an equitable Internet.

And they commissioned the design studio that I set up with two friends at the time. Let's explore this concept of healthy artificial intelligence.

And we created the cap called Invisible Masks, which emits infrared lights to the human face particular ways. The reason why we did that was to do.

The whole idea was based on academic free read that you can disrupt facial recognition cameras with infrared light.

LK:

Oh, wow.

LF:

Because they use infrared light to scan the human face, infrared light is invisible, so you can't see it.

That's what's been invisible Marks and that was a very political project because it looked into, you know, agency authority and public space surveillance culture. Also looking at what was going on in the world around this at the time, you know, the Hong Kong process was going on, there was things.

But also from an architectural perspective perspective, you know, you now have new building developments meaning, you know, being set up and some of these property developers are, you know, adding these cameras without the permission of those who inhabit that space on letting people know that it exists.

So you know, for me in general, the work I've always done has always sat in the space of like, you know, politics or even the fact that I work with a lot with machine learning and AI in my practice. Right. How do you, you could do this in an ethically responsible way. You know, how do you.

What is ethically responsibly, you know, how do you, what is the argument of data sets? You know, where's the data sets?

You know, if you're using, you know, a pre trained AI model, which is a model that's AI model that's already exist, you haven't trained it yourself. Do you know where the source of that data is coming from? Yeah, you know, versus if you did it, trained it yourself. And that was something.

So I think in general everything I engage in, I'm always having to manage that quite a lot and trying to take that perspective. Something I don't really shy away from.

LK:

Yeah, that's great. And it seems like especially in this field of AI, these kind of ethical questions and questions that biases.

Yeah, they're so important and maybe under discussed. Yeah, yeah.

LF:

I think, I think there's somewhere outside of the realm of like my work with technology which is very much something that, you know, has been an area that I hope, you know, just, you know, something would be served is I grew up in a council flat. Right.

And yeah, you know, you know, council flats obviously of the built up for a certain time were built with certain structures or certain materials. All things that, you know, you know, the traditional council flight London mode, this, that.

And I think one of the things that's always been hard is you know, like you know, Grenfell for example, you know, and, and that's still an inquiry, for example, that hasn't actually been settled.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

And I hope that that comes with some sort of justice and that that can be people can be whoever needs to be held accountable, you know, for things like that, for something like that in that way to never ever happen again. Because that's a story, that's something that really touched me quite a bit.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

Because of like, you know, growing up in, you know, building similar. Growing up in space is similar. But also, you know, all of those particular things, you know, made me wanted to be more. I remember that, like, I was.

I think I was studying my masters at the time and I had been writing about like, you know, the pitfalls of. I think I've written about like, urban regeneration projects and some of the particular pitfalls that comes with that and stuff.

And I just remember that's something that maybe, you know, even when I think about outside of work, how. Yeah, that can help.

LK:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. So thanks for mentioning that because I think it's such an important conversation to have in an architecture school especially.

And we did have this symposium, I think, last year about the cladding crisis and yeah, Grenville and all of these other kind of still existing buildings that have very kind of dangerous materials used in them. But yeah, I think it's something that is super important. Last question about politics. What lesson or belief was the hardest for you to unlearn?

If you can think of any.

LF:

This is an interesting one. I wanted to ask. Why is it in the politics side?

LK:

Yeah, I mean, I think, I guess beliefs that you held maybe that shape your kind of understanding of the world around you, which is inherently political. So I think you could read it in many different ways.

But yeah, I don't know, possibly in this process of you learning about politics, kind of things going on around you, how society works, were there any kind of pivotal moments or moments of awakening when you maybe realized something that you previously believed was not the case or kind of shifted your understanding, perhaps?

LF:

Okay, yeah, an interesting one. When I think of this question in regards to politics, I feel like when I was younger, I was very much politically charged.

I joined, I was part of this. I lived in Peckham's in the background, but Council Savage, and I was part of the, you know, part of the youth council there.

LK:

Okay, cool.

LF:

I was also like, you know, you know, was a member of like Labor Party until recently, you know, and for me, I guess at that time, you obviously think the way how you can mostly create change is by being a politician. You think, you know, that was a thing.

And as I got old, older, maybe where I can say having to learn or learn is that, you know, there's so much things that we, or everything we kind of do is political.

You know, when you mentioned about, you know, just now about architecture school and things, it's like, you know, I work on stuff on the Internet sometimes if somebody doesn't pay that the server cost or something, that stuff gonna die. Or one of the hardest things of creating stuff digitally is how do you preserve it?

You know, if you make, for example, if you know, one of the beautiful things or maybe old games, people can find old game consoles and play them on, you know, but if you had a, you know, PS5, you can't play necessarily a game from 1980s on it.

Or same thing with, you know, if you made a game for like a particular mobile game on the iOS but maybe the game was made in, I don't know, 2008, but it was a very iconic artistic thing. There's a chance that you buy a new iPhone now you can't be able to play that game because the iOS won't allow you. It didn't update itself.

This is a digital space. So things fade away quite fast in a digital space. But when you're building the physical building. Right. That stuff gonna last after.

It should last after you.

LK:

Yeah.

LF:

So you really have to kind of think like how do you think about the world when you're designing this thing? Sometimes you're thinking about now, but it's like, what world are we designing for? You know?

And I think for me one of the biggest things has always kind of been like, okay, I don't have to. The change doesn't have to be left to just pure politicians. The change can also be enabled by me and I can have these perspectives.

Or if I'm going to be in those rooms where there is like, you know, power, you know, how do you, how do you, you know, be conscious of the world you're creating or there's particular things there. So that's maybe where. Maybe for me.

LK:

Yeah, definitely. Thanks for sharing that.

LF:

Yeah.

LK:

We have a few more light hearted quickfire questions just to finish up. Morning person or night owl?

LF:

Night owl.

LK:

Night owl. What are you currently reading?

LF:

I'm not currently reading anything right now. There is a book I do want to read which is called the Will to Change by bell hooks.

LK:

Oh yeah.

LF:

Which is about masculinity and I can't remember the rest, but it's definitely a book that I want to read next.

LK:

Love. Great. Do you have a guilty pleasure?

LF:

What is a guilty pleasure? What kind?

LK:

Something that you enjoy doing but maybe you feel like you shouldn't.

LF:

Sometimes I feel like food feels like a guilty pleasure. That's only been computer.

LK:

Food is life. Food is sustenance.

LF:

Yeah. After a while.

LK:

Yeah. What is your most prized possession?

LF:

I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't really feel like I have. I don't know. I don't think I have that much attachment to, like, physical things.

Like, like the first thing I was going to say was my most prized possession was going to be so capitalistic. I was going to say my bloody laptops or something. I was going to say, oh, my God, if they break or something happens to them, how do you know what?

But in terms of general, I don't really have, like, that much attachment to things. I feel like I have a lot of materials. Yeah.

LK:

Oh, that's good. What was your first experience of the aa?

LF:

When I came to speak at disrupted the system about my practice and my work and stuff like that. That was actually my first experience. I'd never been in here before.

I feel like I had walked past maybe Bedford Square or parked in Bedford Square to, like, road or something like that, but I've never ever, like, been here before.

LK:

Nice. Can you describe the AA in one word?

LF:

School?

LK:

School. Nicely. That's true, yeah. Okay, well, that's it. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

It was great to hear from you and hear more about your life and work.

LF:

Thank you so much.

LK:

Thanks. Thanks for listening to this episode.

AirAA podcasts are developed, recorded, mixed and edited by the Architectural association from our home on Bedford Square in Central London. To find more episodes, view the show notes and explore other Air AA series, visit air.aaschool.ac.uk the views and opinions expressed in these podcasts are those of the individuals involved in each episode. Opinions expressed by the hosts and guests can change at any time and are not representative of the aa.