On the Steps of 36
Episode 25: Alessia Gammarota

Ryan Dillon:
Join us On the Steps of 36, a question-and-answer conversation that crosses the thresholds into the histories, lives, influences and stories of the person and figure behind their work. A podcast by AirAA at the Architectural Association.

Leela Keshav:
Hello and welcome to On the Steps of 36, a podcast by AirAA at the Architectural Association. Today we're joined by Alessia Gammarota, a photographer who worked with the Fight4Aylesbury campaign and was a panellist in the public programme event, ‘The Resistant Representations of Artist-Activists’ earlier this year. Alessia's documentary photography focuses on communities and identities in relation to housing issues. Thanks for joining us, Alessia.

Alessia Gammarota:
Hello. Thanks for having me.

LK:
So we're just going to be asking a bunch of questions today and we're going to start with some more general questions and then get more specific. Starting with first question. Can you just tell me your full name? And what generation would you say that you belong to?

AG:
My full name is Alessia Gammarota and I am Gen X, but at the very end of Gen X. So we can say that I'm a Gen X, millennial cusp. That sounds better. I'm almost a millennial.

LK:
Nice. What is something about you that you wouldn't usually include in your bio?

AG:
Anything that I wouldn't mention in a podcast.

LK:
Okay, so it's top secret.

AG:
I don't know. I just,

LK:
Yeah, that's fair. It's a tough one. Moving on to your childhood, can you tell me where you grew up?

AG:
I grew up in Genoa in Italy. So it's a city on the north-west coast of Italy. And it used to be an important harbour and he used to have like a big steel industry. But then from the 80s on, there was a crisis in the port activities in the steel industry, so there was a decrease in employment. So it never recovered from it. Although try to turn it in a touristic attraction. That is always something that happened in Italy, they think they can sort out everything with tourism. So, yeah, Renzo Piano actually is from Genoa.

LK:
Oh, okay.

AG:
So maybe this can be interesting. So, yeah, he redeveloped the old harbour in the 90s. And with, well, something that I don't really like.

LK:
Okay, I was going to ask, what do you think about that? Why didn't you like it?

AG:
Well, they turned the old harbour, they reconnected with the city, so it makes sense. And they built an [aquarium], which is still like, it's the only successful touristic attraction there. But Renzo Piano built a panoramic lift that I think it's a bit pointless. And he built this biosphere that is a glass sphere on the sea. It's not massive, it's kind of small. And I think that at the moment there is some tropical flora kind of things. I remember at a certain point they put birds inside, but they died.

LK:
Okay a bit of a failed experiment

AG:
Like a bit of pointless. I think that it was all about budget. So the city didn't have a budget to hire Renzo Piano.

LK:
So it probably looked really impressive as an image.

AG:
And then they were like, well, we don't have the money, so you can. If you can do something small and random.

LK:
Oh dear. Okay. The poor birds. What kind of building did you grow up in?

AG
The building I grew up in is from the 1930s, so it was part of like a programme of urban development at the time. So Genoa is squeezed between the mountain and the sea. So there is not much space to extend the city. So at a certain point they extend it on the hills. So yes, it retain almost the original feature. So the lifts are original, the staircase is original. It happened often in Italy, so it's not something, anything new. And yeah, you have a long staircase, nice entrance. You have a long staircase that bring to the lift which is not exactly accessible for nowadays standard, but it's very nice. And yes. And then my parents flat is on the top floor.

LK
Do they still live there?

AG
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

LK
Okay. Very nice. Did you know your neighbours at the time?

AG
I knew everyone because I'm the fourth generation of my family that grew up in that road.

LK
Wow. So that's amazing.

AG
Actually my great, great father bought a flat in 1915 around in the same road and that it was under the same urban programme of extending the city. And that building was kind of like council estate. So they were like cheaper flat for working class people. And in that flat, my great granddad was born and grew up. My mum was born and grew up. Me and my sister were born and grew up. Then when I was like two, it was overcrowded, the flat and my parents found like the flat that I mentioned that is next to it is just in the same road. So everyone knew each other. And yes, I felt I was, when I was a teenager, I had the feeling of being suffocated because I wanted to be, I wanted to be a stranger in a stranger place, you know. But yeah, it was a big community. It was very important at the end.

LK
Yeah, that's really interesting actually. And it makes me wonder, and maybe we'll get back to this about your interest in housing right now in terms of your photography and maybe your work with the Aylesbury estate, where it felt like maybe there was a similar sense of community in the building. So yeah, it's interesting that you also experienced that growing up. Who were you close to or who inspired you as a child?

AG
I was very close to my grandma. She lived in the same road, and she was very much part of my everyday life. And she lived in this flat that was full of stuff because she survived the Second World War. So she had this war mentality of keeping everything because you never know, you might need it. And there was nothing precious, but she kept everything. And I like to go through, like, her wardrobe, the draw the boxes and find things. So, I spend a lot of time with her looking through, like, family pictures. And she loved to tell stories, like family stories. So yes.

LK
Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, I mean, it's almost like an archive, a personal archive. And I feel like all of those objects hold stories as well. Even if they don't have much monetary value. Over time, they kind of accumulate meaning in a different way.

AG
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

LK
Oh, that's amazing. What is a belief that you held as a child that now seems strange or ridiculous?

AG
Well, the only silly thing that comes to my mind now, it's just really silly. It's that my dad always wanted to watch news. He was very much into politics, which is very, like very boring for a kid. And I thought that at the time, I thought that the anchorman was looking at us, so was overlooking at us, the way we were looking at him. So he was in a sort of balcony overlooking us and talk with us.

LK
That would be quite disturbing to think that, honestly. At what point did you realise that he was actually just in a screen?

AG
Well, I don't know.

LK
One day you clocked. Last question about childhood is what was a special place for you growing up?

AG
Okay, this. I have a lot to say.

LK
Oh, okay.

AG
So it's definitely Genoa and it's my neighbourhood.

LK
Yeah.

AG
Because I grew up on the uphill city.

LK
Happiest city?

AG
Uphill, on the hill.

LK
Yeah.

AG
So it's above the city centre.

LK
Right.

AG
And it's an area that was developed between the end of the 19th century, the beginning of 20th century, and it developed along this panoramic road that followed the hills and it just kind of like embraced the city from above. So over there I was surrounded by like different perspective and interesting architecture and very peculiar path. So when they built the road, then they built also funicular and lift to connect the city centre to the hill.

LK
Oh wow.

AG
Because before that, they were just this narrow street that were like mostly pebbles and red bricks for animals and pedestrian, which still we use them. But then they need like different type of transport that were quicker. So it was all like an up and down climb, slope, steps, railings and walkways. And you have this fourth perspective on the roof. So, if you walk in the road, you have a roof that at the same high height of the road add it belongs to the building that sit in the street below. So those building have like an entrance at level of the street and an entrance on the rooftop that was connected, that is connected with skywalks.

LK
Sounds amazing.

AG
So everything is not linear, you know. And also those slopes or those steps, they were never linear. There was always a bend and lift. And always a tunnel that you have to cross to get into the street. And then, another interesting thing is that in that period between like end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20, there was an architect that work a lot, work a lot in my region, work a lot in Genoa, but specifically in my neighbourhood. And it's a minor architect, it's not something that is maybe appearing.

LK
Do you know their name?

AG
And it's Gino Coppedè.

LK
Okay.

AG
And was. Was a kind of like archistar at the time. So he moved from Florence to Genoa and he kind of found his place there because he got a lot of commission from like the middle class that needs kind of like a status because Genoa was like flourishing again after a period of decay. So these people with money need like kind of like status villa of residency. And he has this style that is, it's a mix of old style. So he built this castle, like medieval castle. And there are like very, he has a very like decorative but hyperbolic style. You know, it's just crazy. And it's like not neo-Gothic, but neo-medieval, I would say.

LK
Wow, okay. That's not what I was imagining at all. Initially I thought it would be more modernist. Do you enjoy it? Do you like this architecture?

AG
I love it because it was so mysterious. I thought that I was living in fairytales, not the Disney one, but like the mysterious, like traditional fairytales. You know, there is like fantastic element, but there are also like dark place and mysterious because many of these park around this villa, this castle, they were on top of the hill, they have man-made grottoes and one of them has man-made waterfall. And part of them were turned into public spaces. So the park was turned into like a public park. And some of those residences was turned into museum. So actually you could play in this place. And it was always like you go through the grotto and you go to. So for a kid. Maybe for an adult, it's not as exciting as I'm telling you now, but for a kid, it just shaped my imagination.

LK
Yeah, it sounds like a really magical place to grow up. Really special. Okay, moving on to some questions about your work. How would you describe what you do?

AG
I'm a documentary photographer, but I don't have a strictly journalistic approach to it. Lately I'm moving more into collective project because I don't feel that approaching story from a single point of view nowadays makes sense anymore. It's not like photography is not anymore that window on the world that used to be. So we are, you know, reality is very fragmented. We, we are submerged by like enormous amount of images that we produce, camera produce. You know, we have like so many point of view that I'm more interested on, like working collective with other people and working on maybe on visual archives. So collecting and reorganising, make sense of like the visual mess that we are submerged in.

LK
That's super interesting. Are you part of some kind of collective or.

AG
No, I mean, you know, I collaborate with maybe, you know, architect or anthropologist, but it's a kind of like working in progress. I think that since the Fight4Aylesbury exhibition. It was something that, it was always in my mind. But since the Fight4Aylesbury exhibition, I kind of start thinking it, like properly thinking about it.

LK
Yeah, that's really interesting actually, this collaborative approach. Do you feel like this is a shift that other photographers working in journalistic photography or documentary photography are also making or is it still something that is quite individualistic usually?

AG
I think that omeone start making it. Yeah, there is no, specially from Covid on, it's way more difficult to access, to being able to publish. And so sometimes, in the past you make a story and then you think, well, I'm gonna sell it to someone. From Covid on, it became like more and more difficult. And then who read magazine or newspaper. And it's kind of like pointless. You know, you want to reach. You want to reach people, and that is not the way to reach people anymore.

LK
Yeah. So what are the main outlets at the moment? Is it more social media?

AG
Yes, yes, absolutely, social media. But in general. Yeah. Doing things online because then you have link, you know. They're more interactive.

LK
Yeah.

AG
It's not like reading, you know, it's newspaper. No one read the newspaper. You read news online and then you have link and then you open doors and gates to more knowledge. So it's, it's the way information goes now. And I think is that is the approach otherwise like creating event or like exhibition something that can be visit.

LK
This kind of relates back to your childhood. But did you always know that you would end up doing what you do now?

AG
I knew that it would have been something related with let's say visual arts because till I was in high school I thought I would have been a painter.

LK
Oh, okay.

AG
Yeah. I was, I was being good on drawings and painting and I was, I was quite prolific painter in my like 12, 13. Oil painting. I was, yeah. And then when I start my painting degree, I realised that's it was very hard to

LK
Very hard to make it as a painter, or did you? What made you shift?

AG
I lost interest.

LK
Okay.

AG
When I started.

LK
Yeah.

AG
And then I encounter photography.

LK
Okay. And then did you shift your degree of focus to photography at that point?

AG
No, I finished my painting degree because there were like a lot of like courses that I really love. So I'm happy that I did it because not for the main course that was painting that it was the disappointing one, but all the rest was amazing. And then I did, and then I did the second degree in photography.

LK
Okay. Do you feel like studying painting influenced the way that you take photographs?

AG
Yeah, I think it. Yeah, I think it influences. But I have always that approach. So I start studying painting when I was way younger, you know, since my primary school. So yeah, I grew up with consuming a lot of art, looking through a lot of art books or visit a lot of exhibition. Yeah.

LK
I guess it shaped the way that you see. If you could change your field of work, what would you do instead?

AG
I would do set design.

LK
Really?

AG
For theatre.

LK
Okay.

AG
I think so, yeah. Because it's kind of interesting to, yeah, to create something that. To create an environment like with light, visual element, but even with sound that can create an atmosphere or, yeah, feelings for a show.

LK
Yeah, that's really interesting. Have you ever tried or have you ever photographed a set?

AG
No, no. No. But I think I'm fascinated about that environment. And then it's also about like working collectively, which I think is important.

LK
Yeah, definitely. I guess in terms of creating an atmosphere, it's also quite similar in a way to making an image or taking a photograph potentially. What is the space in which you work like? I guess that it shifts a lot of the time.

AG
Yeah. I usually work in location.

LK
Yeah.

AG
And if I work, or if I have to edit or select my images, I need a computer. So I work from home. So what I need is a big desk. I have a big desk. I have a pinboard and a printer. So I work from home.

LK
Is there any location that you've worked on that stands out to you?

AG
Well, it's not that I pick the location. Sometimes I, you know, when you do documentary photography, it's more like sometime it's a hunting process.

LK
Yeah.

AG
And sometime you go in places that you don't expect to. So when I do this work about squatting and I was following this group of squatter, it was quite interesting and exciting because I was going with them from a building to another through windows.

LK
Was that in the UK?

AG
In London

LK
It was in London.

AG
Yes. Yes. There were, yeah, around. There was this place. These squatters were political squatters. They use the squatting to highlight issue about homelessness. And so they were, so they were in hunt for places to. It was kind of like a game. They were quite young and they like to, they like challenges. So and, but they made me discover a lot of building in central London that are empty. They sit empty for years. The landlord know that are temporary squat. They know that are shelter for people.

LK
Yeah.

AG
And as long as these people don't stay there longer, they don't care because they are like economical assets. You know, they can sit there. So they knew all these places and they knew how to move. So from a building you can, through windows, you can go in a courtyard and move to another building through open windows. And then you can walk the city in some way through empty buildings, which is quite interesting.

LK
Yeah. It's so horrible to think how much unoccupied space there is that's just sitting there. Yeah, I know that you can't squat residential building, which is what happened with Aylesbury as well, right. But how did these people figure out where they could go and how did they even identify these empty spaces?

AG
Well, they are very knowledgeable. They know all the law, they know all the fine print. So they are not.

LK
They've done their research.

AG
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. They are like the most knowledgeable people in terms of housing to the city. Yeah, absolutely.

LK
Yeah, that's really fascinating. Maybe we'll get back to that a bit. Can you talk to me about a particular book that has had a significant impact on the way that you approach your work?

AG
This book has a particular significance for me. I don't know if it has a significance in the way I approach my work. But it's the Camera Lucida, Roland Barthes.

LK
Okay.

AG
And so I read it when I was at uni, I was at the Academy of Fine Art. And it's not written for photographer, and it's not written by a photographer. So it's not gonna, it doesn’t tell you what is a good pictures, how to achieve a good picture, these kind of things. It talk about the essence of the photograph, of a photograph. And Roland Barthes is a semiologist. So he approached photo as a sign, a visual sign. And he talk from the point of view of what he calls the spectator. So the person that look at the picture. And yes, he talk about what he calls the, well, he talk about many aspects of photography. One of the aspect is what he calls the punctum, which is that insignificant detail that hold you in a picture, and that hold your gaze and make you expand your thinking. So it resonate to me because it was my experience going with my grandma through family pictures. Like the fact that I was, I spent a lot of time staring at the pictures for I don't know what reason. You know, they emanate something. There was an aura that emanate.

LK
That's really interesting. Do you feel like you have that aura in your own photographs as well? Or does it take someone else to see it maybe?

AG
I don't think there is any aura in my pictures, and I am not the person to say.

LK
Fair enough. If there is one device you could invent that would aid your work and the world around you potentially, what would it be?

AG
Well, I don't know about the world around me.

LK
Maybe just your own words.

AG
I would like a user-friendly printer because printers are just a constant hassle, you know, that is the stupid piece of technology that could invent. It just like always break something. There is something that doesn't work. And also something fault-proof storage system, you know, to make backup to organise pictures. Probably I would just need to have like a good assistant.

LK
Yeah, yeah, true. Okay, so moving on to some questions about architecture. Can I ask you where do you live now?

AG
I live in London, Thamesmead in brutalist housing complex that was built in the mid-60s, 70s on marshland. And it took the name of, it was named the city of tomorrow.

LK
Very optimistic

AG
Yes, now it’s undergoing massive regeneration. They knocked down half of it already.

LK
Oh really?

AG
And they gonna knock down the part that I live in in the next years. It’s the place where Kubrick filmed A Clockwork Orange.

LK
Really? Oh, amazing. That's really sad to hear, though. I'm sorry to hear that they're demolishing your building. Is there any kind of activism going on to save the building at the moment?

AG
Yes, there is some activism. I worked there for years, and I moved there only a couple of years ago through this guardianship scheme. So I knew what I was doing.

LK
Did you know at the time it was probably going to be demolished?

AG
Yes, because this guardianship scheme works on properties that are undergoing demolition. So I wasn't happy to join that scheme. But on the other hand, I couldn't afford to live in London. So I thought, well, there are not many options for me and the flat is beautiful. It's just crazy that they are going to knock it down. So there is part of a community that is fighting against it. But yeah, it's difficult.

LK
Yeah.

AG
Well, we know the case of Aylesbury. That was, they fought for 25 years and there was a strong community. They were very much well organising, organised and fighting. It's becoming like more and more difficult. And I'm not in the position of fighting directly because I'm in this. I'm in the middle, you know. So, yeah, it's a bit controversial.

LK
Yeah, that's really tough. And yeah, we'll probably return to this in a bit. Can you tell me when you moved to London and how did you find that transition?

AG
First time I moved to London was 13 years ago.

LK
Okay.

AG
I, I didn't move, like I moved here to do work and then I thought, I'm going to stay here a month or so and then not more than a month. And then, yeah.

LK
It turned into more work or you just like the city?

AG
I really like the city. I knew the city because I used to come to London like twice per year. I used to work in fashion week. So I used to come here for London Fashion Week. And I always loved like, among the city, fashion week cities, that I used to go to, London was my favourite. 
So, yeah, there was always kind of like love for London. It's just that I didn't, the moment I started doing this project, I wasn't really thinking to move and it's something that came naturally.

LK
Amazing. Maybe I could also ask you a bit more about this transition of your work, going back to your work. Considering that you used to do more kind of fashion photography and this sort of thing and now you're doing much more kind of political projects, how did that shift occur?

AG
I start with fashion, because it was the easier field, the field that I need to pay bills. And then I thought that was a field that can have some creativity in it. And fashion week was the field that actually pay you among the really unregulated field of fashion. And then I thought, well, with fashion week, I can access places that people can't access because you, you need to be invited to fashion week. You can't like, pay a ticket to get inside fashion shows. And I really wanted to travel, so it seems to me the best, like, option. But then I got very bored after a few years.

LK
Is it quite repetitive?

AG
Yes. And I didn't really like the environment and it was a bit shallow. And then while I was doing fashion week and actually when I was doing fashion week in London, I used to go, doing shopping or like in Oxford Circus and stuff. And because my eyes were set on people and clothing, I started noticing all these Muslim girls. And I was thinking, they look so cool. You know, I was like, why I have to stay in front of, like, I have to go to show to see, like, all the same people when in the streets, like, people are way more interesting. So I got into this topic of Muslim fashion that at the beginning was like, undiscovered. You know, it was like, yeah, 13 years ago.

LK
Yeah.

AG
And I did a bit of research and I start finding, like, people. And I got into it and it was, it was so interesting. And that's why I moved to London to contact those people and start working. And so at the beginning, my documentary, I thought it would be, be like more related with fashion or like clothing. So aspect of fashion behind, like the, the windows of the fashion, of the coolness, you know, there are different system. And what means, like wearing clothes in identity terms for minority, as the case of like Muslim fashion and also the system of fashion, you know, in the world. But then, yeah. And so, yeah, from I stay in London, I did this work about Muslim fashion. Then I was here, and I didn't know how to move to another topic. And I was a bit tired of London. So at that time, I decided to move to Southeast Asia and I moved to Indonesia because over there, there was a proper industry, a flourishing industry. So it wasn't like young people. It was different context.

LK
Yeah.

AG
And so, I moved there and I live in Jakarta for, for a little while, like for seven months. And then I come back to London to do, thinking I'm gonna do a documentary about the fashion grey market. That was, it's very difficult things to,

LK
What is the grey market?

AG
It's like, there is like big fashion brands, like let's say Dior or like Chanel. They have extremely high price when you move out of Europe, like taxation of like luxury good, it's very high. So there is all this grey market of Chinese dealer or like that, the Asian dealer or like Russian that they come to Europe, buy a lot of luxury goods.

LK
But they’re real, they’re not fake ones?

AG
They're real.

LK
They're real ones. Yeah.

AG
And then they move it to other country escaping the taxes system. There is all a grey market. And at the time I was thinking that there was a lot of talking about the new Silk Road. And I thought what is the, what is the new silk nowadays? And I thought about the luxury good and I thought oh, maybe I can trace. The route of the new silk.

LK
And did that develop into a project?

AG
No, it didn't develop in a new project because it's very difficult to approach people that are part of this market because they have no interest.

LK
I can imagine, they wouldn’t want to be,

AG
So I had like, I follow like for a few days a Malaysian rich woman that 
was doing this but then she dropped me and yeah, I was trying to approach salesperson that work in like Dior and this kind of. But yeah, it was, it was that very difficult.

LK
Yeah.

AG
And at the same time, I got read on The Guardian, there was this group of squatters that squat this Russian billionaire place in the centre of London. And I thought, wow, that's interesting.

LK
Right.

AG
I went to them, I knock at the door and that's why I started there.

LK
Yeah. It sounds almost like you're an investigative journalist, you're kind of following the stories.

AG
Well, any story that's kind of like resonate to me. Sometimes there is something that just click in your mind. It's like, oh, that's interesting. And yeah, yeah.

LK
And then I guess it's a whole other process to actually make it into a project and get people on board with you being there.

AG
Yeah, yeah, there are like a lot of, a lot of projects that never became reality, you know, like most of the project never.

LK
Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, always the case. Another question about architecture. Is there one hidden building or space that you would recommend to visit, it could be London or maybe in your hometown?

AG
in London. I would recommending the Sands Film Studio. It's independent film production that in Rotherhithe and it's been there since like mid-70s in like in a 18th-century warehouse. It's a very charming place. I used to go there to cine club. Ages ago. Actually. It's been ages since last time I went there.

LK
Yeah. Is it still running?

AG
I think so, yes. Yes, I'm sure it's still running. Yeah, they also have. So I used to go there with a friend of mine and it's a very charming place. And you get inside this place and you pass through. They have this visual library that is in this ground floor with this low ceiling and with this reclaimed timber on the ceiling. And it's full of scrapbooks of visual stuff for people that work on TV, on film. If you want to look out, I don't know, doing something about the 17th century and you want to see how look like a chair, I don't know, like any, any object. You have like a visual reference there and it's free. And then from there, there was like this small door and you get inside this like corridor that bends is full of stuff and you end up in a small room full of chair, couches and sofa all mixed. And there was this French guy introducing the film of the week. And when I used to go there, there wasn't a topic for the film, the cine club, but they used to pick a year and like, maybe they pick 1956, let's say. And for a month or so they were playing all the filmography on that year from different country. So you have like an overview of what it was produced in that year around the world.

LK
That’s amazing

AG
Sometimes it was a bit niche.

LK
Oh yeah, I can imagine.

AG
So it wasn't like for all them palette. But sometimes it was a bit challenging, you know, when they pick like a silent, like when they picked like silent movie. But yeah, it's definitely a charming place. And then it's an interesting aspect of this place, like the building is beautiful and that they at a certain point they risk the eviction because they couldn't afford to pay the rent. As everyone in London, including the mayor and they set up a share hold involving the community around and also actors and producers around the country went on board and you could became a shareholder with like a few hundred pounds and keep alive.

LK
So it became almost a cooperative model?

AG
Yeah, I think so. I can't tell you in detail, it's just something that maybe I read at a certain point.

LK
Okay, so they were able to save it in the end?

AG
Yeah, yeah.

LK
They had enough backing behind them. That sounds like an incredible place. I'll definitely be checking it out. If you could visit one piece of architecture that no longer exists, what would it be?

AG
This is one of those questions that's for which the answer, the right answer is going to come always too late. In a couple of weeks, I'm going to say, oh, I could have said this.

LK
It’s a tough one.

AG
But in London, I would say Crystal Palace.

LK
Oh, yes, that's so true. That's a great answer.

AG
Also, it had to be like an amazing place to see with all this like immense one room, like glass and steel place. And also it's quite fascinating, the story.

LK
Yeah.

AG
Because it's a kind of like Titanic in land, you know.

LK
Yeah, yeah. I guess these buildings were inspired by ships, weren’t they?

AG
Yeah, but more in the sense what I meant is more like it was built to showcase the Victorian innovation

LK
The colonial conquests

AG
Progress and blah, blah. And then it burned down into ashes in like a blink of an eye. So, it's a kind of like Titanic kind of thing.

LK
I see what you mean. No, definitely. Yeah. I always try to imagine it when I go to Hyde Park and yeah, it's almost hard to think that there was such a structure there. But yeah, it's a good answer. Maybe we already touched on this a little bit, but is there a particular landscape or outdoor place that is meaningful to you?

AG
Anywhere by the sea, I would say, because I grew up in a sea place, so the sea is always missing.

LK
Right. Do you miss that in London?

AG
Well, I moved out of Genoa when I was 18 and I lived in mostly inland places, so I used not to see the sea. But every time I go by the sea, I feel that I miss it because. Yeah. You never get bored.

LK
Yeah. Is there a particular seaside place in England that you like going to?

AG
Well, my partner has a house in Norfolk, so I enjoy that coast of Norfolk because it's completely different from like the coast that I'm used to. It's like you have this like very long strip of sand and the sea, it's open sea.

LK
Yeah.

AG
I'm in love with Cornwall because it remind me of Genoa coast.

LK
Does it?

AG
Yes, yes.

LK
Haven't been. But yeah, I would love to go there. If you could remove a type of building from London or the UK, what would you choose to replace it with?

AG
I would remove any of those mixed materials, mixed tenure building that were built in the past 20 something years on the wake of the New Labour urban renaissance. So everything that has jolly colours and makes aluminium balcony that get rusty and wood panels that get rotten.

LK
Yeah. It's not made for the long term.

AG
Yeah. And they're visually annoying.

LK
Yeah.

AG
It's just.

LK
What do you think about maybe a similar type of building that's built now, like you know those kinds of brick buildings, even that are around the Aylesbury Estate, that they all look quite generic. But what do you think about those kinds of buildings?

AG
I got to know that there is a name for those buildings. It's a new trend. It's like it's new.

LK
I see them everywhere.

AG
It's called, and maybe some architect can correct me. But from what I know they call it New London Vernacular.

LK
The New London Vernacular. Yeah, that makes sense, honestly.

AG
I mean they're not so visually annoying like yeah, the previous one. But yeah, they're like poorly built.

LK
Yeah.

AG
They are boring, poorly built and doesn't make it. Yeah, and there are kind of like squashed because they want to use as much as land.

LK
They're just profit driven. Yeah. Very homogenous.

AG
So there is no. Yeah, there is no thinking behind them.

LK
And very expensive from my understanding as well.

AG
Yeah, yeah.

LK
They're definitely not social housing. Okay, moving on to some questions about culture. What do you consider to be your perfect meal?

AG
Any meal that is made out of seasonal and fresh and seasonal ingredient. Maybe not from UK because it's like a bit narrow, the seasonality.

LK
Yeah, that's true. I recently subscribed to this veg box called Growing Communities and it's really great. It's all kind of locally sourced but at the moment we just get root vegetables. So turnips, carrots, potatoes. Turnips, carrots, potatoes. And I'm really running out of things to make with those. Yeah, I understand what you mean. If you had to recommend a non-architecture book to architects, what would it be?

AG
Okay, I'm going to be super predictable.

LK
Okay.

AG
Sorry I couldn't come out with anything smart and new but I'm going to say the Invisible Cities, Italo Calvino.

LK
Right. That is a classic.

AG
It's a classic. I think it's important especially in this time because urban planning is made out of concepts like economical development or security or functionality. And it's important to stress what cities or building are. They're not only in animated structure. They, they, they, they, they are shaped by life. You know, they are like live organism in a sense. You know, they like building, retain experience as much as human being, you know and they.

LK
Yeah, definitely.

AG
And they, they shape human being and are shaped by human being. So keep in mind that architecture is always between this tension of like order and rationality and chaos of like of human life. It's important.

LK
Yeah, I feel like the book really captures that sense of the cities being alive and constantly shifting and dreamlike and imaginative.

AG
Yeah, yeah. And then I think that this, the theme of the city cross most of the book in Calvino and it's, yeah, it's like if you pick The Baron in the Trees, for instance, the trees that inhabit, have a structure of a city in some way. And then he also has like, there are a lot of books. There is like a book that has this psychogeographical kind of approach that is Marcovaldo, or The Season in the City. So it's another book that, this book, we read it in Italy usually in primary school because it's quite simple book.

LK
Yeah.

AG
But as a good, like every good book can be read, it's like multilayered, you know.

LK
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. That's a great recommendation. What was the last cultural event that you attended? This could include films or cinema.

AG
I went to see two days ago that documentary, No Other Land.

LK
Oh yes. I really want to go see it. Would you recommend?

AG
It's painful.

LK
Yeah.

AG
Makes your blood boils. But it's important to keep on giving voices to these people. It's like the minimum that we can do.

LK
Yeah, definitely. If you could inhabit one film or artwork, which would it be?

AG
I think that I could inhabit a Lubitsch movie. So he was a director, a German director that worked between the 20s and the 40s. And it is well known in Hollywood for his this elegant, sophisticated, sentimental comedy. But even very humorous as well, and is known for his Lubitsch touch. He has elegant way of going around like themes that were maybe censored, like sexual relationship, these kind of things. But I would inhabit them because they're always set in this beautiful art deco interiors. And there are these women with wavy hair, smoking cigarettes, super well dressed and they're like love triangles and like the main things. This love triangle sounds like a fun place to be.

LK
Very luxurious. What is a TV show that you have most rewatched, if any?

AG
I don't watch TV shows. I don't know what. Yeah, I don't really. Maybe I. Yeah, I don't watch TV show. I can't come out with anything that

LK
I remember totally fine. What about a film? Is there any film that you've kind of gone back to or rewatched?

AG
Yeah, there are like few films that if it happened to rewatch it, rewatched them, I like happily rewatched them. There are many. A Fish Named Wanda.

LK
Oh yeah.

AG
With the Monty Python. That's quite a funny movie that I enjoy to rewatch. And there is a Musical that I know every song really.

LK
Really, which one is that?

AG
The Fiddler on the Roof.

LK
Oh yeah, okay.

AG
it's my favourite musical.

LG
It has really good music.

AG
Yeah, yeah. It's good because like every song is good and every moment. Because musical always have like this high moment and then there is something boring or like some song that is like a bit like this. But The Fiddler on the Roof. Yeah. Like the actors like everything. It's just so beautiful.

LK
Have you seen it performed live?

AG
No. I think I'm in love with the movie itself. I like the actors.

LK
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

AG
I don't know if I could switch the actors.

LK
Okay, interesting. What music, if any, do you listen to when working? Which might be quite hard for your work on location, but maybe in your studio.

AG
Yeah, it's very much depend. There is nothing that I'm. Yeah. Like lately I'm not listening to music. I'm listening to podcasts, for instance.

LK
Okay. Yeah. Anything in particular?

AG
No, it's very random. You know, it's just sometimes I wake up in the morning, it's just random.

LK
Do you like kind of storytelling podcasts? News podcasts?

AG
Maybe I read something and I'm like, oh, this is interesting.

LK
Yeah.

AG
Well, lately I'm, I'm listening a lot of podcasts about what's going on in Palestine and Gaza. So it's like a lot of like political stuff.

LK
Yeah, yeah. It's a good way to get news and information in a way too. Especially when mass media often portrays it in a very biased light. I don't know, do you have a particular source or podcaster that you enjoy listening to or you feel it gives a good sense?

AG
Yeah, I just.

LK
All kinds?

AG
Yeah.

LK
What's the last post that you made on social media, if you use social media and on what platform?

AG
Last month I post something on Instagram. I don't post often. I'm on Facebook, but I haven't posted on Facebook I think for, probably I never post on Facebook. I'm there for like Facebook market,

LK
Yeah.

AG
Or like to, because there are like interesting local groups in Facebook. So if you want to know about an area, it's quite interesting.

LK
True, yeah.

AG
I used to post more on Instagram. So if I have to post something, I post it on Instagram. But I haven't post much lately. One month ago there was a big frost and I woke up, it was all white and I went for like a walk around my area. I enjoy taking pictures and then I post it on Instagram.

LK
Okay, nice. Yeah. So is your Instagram more personal or more about your professional work?

AG
It's both. And it's a hybrid and it doesn't work I realise because when I start Instagram, when Instagram started, it was more like taking visual notes. So it was more like a diary kind of things. And I enjoy in that way. And it was set in a way that you can discover people, but then they change. I don't know, they change something. They change. Yeah, something like this. So you end up having people with more followers that you start encountering people with more followers. It was based on the number of followers and then they start these stories format that I felt that I couldn't keep up the pace. And it wasn't really. And then as a professional, like in visual, there were a lot of like, oh, what I'm doing. You know, it's like a wind of oh, my work or is not what it is. And then there were like people saying when someone get inside your Instagram, the first thing that see is the grid. So you have to make a grid that is kind of harmonic or like interesting. So you have to pick pictures that can work in the grid. I was like, too much.

LK
A lot to keep track of. But do you feel like as a photographer it is kind of a necessary tool in terms of getting work or having a profile?

AG
It could be a good window. I'm not using it properly.

LK
It is hard to keep on top of that kind of thing for sure. Moving on to some questions about politics, which I know we've touched on a little bit. So I know you wanted to talk a little bit about the horrific plan, Trump's plan, to kind of take over Gaza. Yeah, it's so terrible and really unbelievable. I was wondering, what do you think about it? What have you been learning about it?

AG
Yeah, what I found more like the most dystopian aspect of this is that he is the leader of the most powerful nation in the world and at the same time is a real estate developer.

LK
Yeah.

AG
So it's kind of like apply on global scale. Like the same type of aggressive regeneration that he applied in New York. So it just like the scale of this, it became global. And well, we are like capitalism turn like everyone from citizen to consumer. So as long as you have a purchasing power, you can retain some right at the moment, you don't have it, you're expendable. And so any community that is not profitable is an obstacle to the growth, to the economical growth. And this is translate into, in a global scale.

LK
Yeah.

AG
And I mean colonialists always work in a similar way of like. Yeah. Of like appropriating land. But I think that this is a kind of like new form and it's like using. It's really reshaping geopolitics for private, strictly like put like merely private interest. Trump's son-in-law has been talking about the Gaza waterfront for years. It was already last year, it was like mentioned, ‘well this is a place that has so much potential’. So everything you know is like, it's scary that now concepts like peace or stability are linked to business development. So there is no such things as human rights, self-determination, like nothing like this. And that's why the International Court of Justice is powerless, you know.

LK
Yeah. It really does feel like this new hyper, late capitalist form of colonialism of the US empire. Just kind of feeling that it is able to buy up land and displace anyone that they please to. But I'm glad that you chose this topic because I feel like it's so important in an architecture school also to be aware of that really deep link between architecture and real estate and development where often people working as architects may have the best intentions in mind or want to be ethical, but they're kind of working for these larger power structures and can often as we were talking about also in the case of Aylesbury, these kind of new developments or as your panel was talking about in the consultation countercultures talk, architects can often end up being on the wrong side and actually being complicit in these plans. So I think I saw this horrible render of vision of Gaza and the future and it's just absolutely disturbing and dystopic to imagine that there are even people kind of visualising these plans and making them real. Because in the end there are going to be architects working on these projects that hopefully don't happen. But yeah, it's.

AG
Yeah, that's why the fight has to be come from like everyone just coming together and working as a community.

LK
Yeah, exactly.

AG
Like everyone with each of her or their own expertise, you know.

LK
Yeah, yeah. Because I think architects do have an expertise that could be used for, you know, rebuilding Gaza for Palestinians. Not that it should come from people from outside of Palestine, but kind of having that expertise about how to build something or. But it's just. Yeah. With these kind of market forces, often there's that lack of maybe criticality as well of like where the work is going.

AG
Yeah, yeah. It's always about the power of money.

LK 
Definitely

AG
We are trapped in this. That's why we have to be. Yeah. We have to be creative on finding like alternative route.

LK
Yeah. There's definitely a role for artists and people who can imagine other possible futures. Last question about politics. What lesson or belief was the hardest for you to unlearn?

AG
Well, I don't know if it's about politics. When I grew up they taught me that if I work hard and I'm committed to something, people will eventually recognise it and kind of like reward me for it in a way. But when I start working, I learnt it the hard way.

LK
Right.

AG
Especially because, you know, like my industry, it's very much unregulated and when I start in fashion maybe it's the most unregulated industry that you can find. It's quite, it can be quite ruthless.

LK
Yeah. I mean it does play into these larger political systems I guess make this not true. Yeah. So now we have some quick fire questions. Rapid question and answer. A bit more light-hearted as well. So are you a morning person or a night owl?

AG
Definitely not a morning person.

LK
What are you currently reading?

AG
I just finished to read a book, an Italian book that is the title is The Mussolini Canals by Antonio Pennacchi. And yeah, it's about the reclamation of marshland during fascism in the Agro Pontino that is between Rome and Naples roughly. It was a massive achievement for the regime because it was. Yeah, it was a land that couldn't be used and it was malaria was breeding there. And to achieve that they use like workforce that was like low paid workforce. They move peasants from poor land in the north of Italy actually in the arc of like 10 years they moved something like 50,000 people that they were willing to work there and risk their life to fly poverty. And also because the regime promised them a piece of land once the reclamation was done. So the book is a fictional book. So it talk about like a fictional family. It's like a saga of a family that moved there but the event of the family are intertwined with the history of the country. So it's quite interesting because you learn things that you don't know and it makes you think make connection and at the same time you enjoy this big saga book of family. And then I read it in Italian that I don't do it often and it just enjoys. So enjoyable to read in your own language.

LK
Sounds like a really interesting premise. What's your most prized possession?

AG
My health.

LK
Yes, good answer. Do you have a guilty pleasure?

AG
I'm going to put myself in a sticky position. I like to go through other people possession with their permission.

LK
Okay.

AG
Is like, you know, going through my grandma wardrobe and finding things. It's just like that kind of things. And I also like to look into other people's houses just for, to see

LK
Oh my gosh. I have to say I really like especially, yeah, in some nice neighbourhoods in London, people have such beautiful living rooms.

AG
Yes, exactly.

LK
Yeah. What was your first experience at the AA?

AG
Well, it was. Yeah, it was recently. Yes, that was a very good experience. Yeah. I didn't know much about AA, but yeah, it was very good.

LK
Glad to hear that. And last question. Can you describe the AA in one word?

AG
No, I can't. It's a bit difficult question. I don't know enough. Like the impression was very good. I enjoyed being here. I enjoy being here, but I can't describe it.

LK
That's fair enough. Yeah. You've only had two experiences so far, but hopefully we'll have you back at some point. Thank you so much for joining me in this podcast. It was really great to hear about your life and your stories and your work. Yeah. Thanks so much.

AG
Thank you so much.

Thanks for listening to this episode. AirAA podcasts are developed, recorded, mixed and edited by the Architectural association from our home on Bedford Square in central London. To find more episodes, view the show notes and explore other AirAA series, visit air.aaschool.ac.uk. The views and opinions expressed in these podcasts are those of the individuals involved in each episode. Opinions expressed by the hosts and guests can change at any time and are not representative of the AA.