On the Steps of 36
Episode 23: Saskia O'Hara

Ryan Dillon:
Join us On the Steps of 36, a question-and-answer conversation that crosses the thresholds into the histories, lives, influences and stories of the person and figure behind their work. A podcast by AirAA at the Architectural Association.

Harriet Jennings:
Hello and welcome to On The Steps of 36, a podcast by AirAA at the Architectural Association. Today we're joined by Saskia O'Hara. Saskia manages the Public Interest Law Centre Gentrification Project supporting access to justice in the class-based transformation of urban space. She has worked on public law challenges across London, including opposing the demolition of estates, protection of community green spaces and assets, and challenging the conditions of families in temporary and overcrowded accommodation. Saskia has been active in grassroots community campaigns for 15 years across Glasgow and London, playing leading roles in housing, anti-austerity, Palestinian human rights campaigns. She is a strategy group member of Focus E15 housing campaign which was founded in 2013 in Newham, East London. She joins us today having taken part in the AA public programme as part of the ‘Consultation Counter Cultures’ event series that examined the systematic inadequacies that groups and individuals experience as part of the public consultation process. So, Saskia, welcome and thank you for joining us today.

Saskia O’Hara:
Thank you.

HJ:
We're going to start quite general, so could you tell us your full name and what generation you'd say you belong to?

SO:
Yeah, so my name is Saskia Martha O’Hara. Martha, after my dear granny. And I believe I'm a millennial.

HJ:
Yeah, yeah, me too. And is there something that you wouldn't normally include in your bio?

SO:
Yeah, I've got one of those things that I have in the back pocket if anyone asks for an interesting fact. And so I'll say that, so my first accent was an English accent because I was born, I was born in Margate.

HJ:
No way.

SO:
And we moved like, my dad's from Glasgow, mum’s German. We moved to Glasgow right on the cusp of, like, allowing my accent to change fully. So my first. I've got video footage of my first, like words. My first accent is very English.

HJ:
That must be totally disorienting. So what age is that at the cusp of?

SO:
We moved up when I was about what, four or five years old? Yeah. So there was a while where I couldn't say certain words because I was like manoeuvring between both of them.

HJ
It's very smart.

SO
There you go.

HJ
Good fact. So where did you grow up? You've just told us, from Margate to Glasgow.

SO
Yeah. South side of Glasgow.

HJ
Okay. Yep. And what kind of building did you grow up in?

SO
So the building I grew up in, they're called cottage flats now. I have no idea if you have this in England or if it is in England, but it's in Scotland. It's basically like a building that's split into four flats. And we had a ground floor flat. Yeah.

HJ
And did you know your neighbours in the building?

SO
Yeah, yeah, we had a crew, a street crew. We knew, yeah, everyone knew everyone.

HJ
Was that like adults and kids? Did you have a kind of kid street crew?

SO
We had kids’ street crew. The parents, you know, shouted at us a bit. It was kind of that vibe. Great fun, though. We were all on the street, was a kind of hill and it was just like a whole one side of the hill knew each other. We didn't know that side of the hill, though, the downside. We were the upside and that was it. Yeah.

HJ
Upside downside rivalries.

SO
Exactly.

HJ
And so, who were you close to or inspired by as a child?

SO
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a kind of twofold thing I think of when I think of that question, which is my starting point definitely is my mum. My mum moved over here when she was 18 from Germany, and she didn't have a lot of family here and she struggled quite a lot and we struggled with money. And when we were a bit older, she went back to college and then university and qualified to be a nurse. And I think that's really cool. And she's always been interested in life and interested in things, and I find that the more I get older, I find that really fascinating that someone can still be really interested in things. And she was like that when I was a kid. So that. And then I have to say that, because it's the truth as well, my dad's, one of my dad's brothers, you know, came from Glasgow and then was in lots of Hollywood films. And that was a kind of mad thing. When you're a kid in Glasgow and you're like, you see your uncle in these films and you go, ah, the world's an interesting place. You can kind of do what you want.

HJ
That's amazing.

SO
Aye, Yeah.

HJ
I suppose, because you're, like rooted in one place, but then that's a very international kind of way to see the world.

SO
Yeah.

HJ
So any films you would have seen?

SO
Yeah, he was in, he was in The Departed. Wow. He was in Braveheart. That was a big one when I was growing up. And he was in Harry Potter. He played, you know, when Harry Potter changes into somebody to get into the Ministry of Magic, he changes into my uncle. So it was like my uncle, but with Harry Potter's, like Daniel Radcliffe’s voice. I asked him to get me to go to, when I was younger, I was like, can I come with you to the premiere? He's like, ah, yeah, yeah. No, he didn't. He did not take me. I think he took a girlfriend. That was the end of that.

HJ
He owes you for sure.

SO
Definitely does. Definitely.

HJ
So is there a belief that you held as a child that now seems strange or ridiculous?

SO
Well, really weird one probably is that I swear when I was a kid I used to think that if I ate apple seeds, you know, I would have a little apple tree growing on me.

HJ
The tree. Yeah, we all have that fear.

SO
Or like something about chewing gum and swallowing chewing gum. I think it was a lot to do with that, like fear of swallowing things you shouldn't. I don't know.

HJ
I think I held onto that one for quite a long time and still probably have it if I accidentally swallow them.

SO
Yeah.

HJ
But so far, we're okay.

SO
Yeah.

HJ
And was there a special place for you growing up?

SO
Yeah, parks. Parks in Glasgow Southside. Pollok Park. It's an excellent park. It's really good. It's got Highland cows. Calderglen. Just the adventure of parks when you're growing up and running about with my brothers was sensational. I loved it. Amazing.

HJ
So moving on to the present, how would you describe what you do?

SO
Yeah. So, you know, my day to day job as part of the gentrification project is essentially working very closely with residents and campaigns across London and in different places in England, Manchester, Birmingham, different places, and understanding the aims of their campaign or just what they're trying to achieve as residents and thinking holistically about what we can offer as a law centre to support them to achieve it. And a lot of the time that looks like litigation. So bringing legal challenges and also, you know, spotting potential good legal challenges, strategic legal challenges that will have a much bigger impact than on the individual. But, you know, it also looks like speaking to people, speak to people all the time. I'm so lucky. I get to go down to the states all the time. We get to commission, you know, research. We released a report last year and so it's, you know, it's a holistic approach to the law and campaigning. Yeah.

HJ
Amazing. And did you always know what you'd end up doing?

SO
Not at all, no. I came to the law late. I worked in music for years. I worked in music. I worked in a music agency.

HJ
Wow.

SO
But that was my day job. But I've always campaigned for as long as I can remember at this point. And so, the move into law, as you know, came after a whole segment doing music and things like that.

HJ
Interesting. What, what made you decide to kind of take the move and leave music?

SO
So doing campaigning at the weekend and housing campaigns, it became really apparent that, you know, campaigners and residents really weren't tooled up in any way opposing demolition plans or planning issues in general through the law. It was, it seemed like it wasn't an option, and so that inspired me to do it. And also, quite honestly, the, the challenge of going, I've kind of done music, and clearly there's a massive need here. Maybe I should spend more of my time contributing something to a housing movement. And so that's kind of what pushed me to do that.

HJ
Amazing. If you could change something in your field of work or study, what would you, what would you change?

SO
I think that, you know, I'll talk kind of about the law. I think I would love to be able to change everyone's starting approach to the law at not having an initial respect for the law, that it will solve issues. And for everyone's starting point to be like, this is a tool. It's a tool that can be used. But you, you know, our strength, our main strength is our campaign, and the law fits into that rather than the other way around. And my experience of, you know, working in law is that unfortunately or not, when you walk in the room as a lawyer, you get automatic respect. And actually, I wish that didn't happen, because you can, I've seen damage done to campaigns where people are told, don't worry, sit back, you know, the law will be. The law will fix this. And inherently, the majority of the time it doesn't, and it never would from the starting point. So, yeah, I think that's really interesting.

HJ
I do feel like, you know, people have this deference for the law, understandably. But perhaps that is interesting to hear you say, perhaps it does take away agency or people's perception of their own agency.

SO
Yeah. And, yeah, and there can be, you know, education around the law is a really good way of, you know, dispelling that. But equally, I think nothing, nothing works as well as working hand in hand and having connections to law centres. Law centres are really important. They're embedded in the community. But, you know, working through legal cases with communities and taking them on every step of the road and being available to discuss what is going on and be there to take people step by step, I think that's the kind of, hopefully, a really important educational for communities.

HJ
Amazing. And what is the space in which you work? What does it look like? Sounds like it's always changing as you move between.

SO
That is very true. Yeah. I'm so lucky that I really get to hop about maybe a bit more than my colleagues do. So, yeah, we have, like, estates and rooms, and I'm sitting here today and that's really cool and exciting. We, we have the courts, which are mad buildings. Have you ever been to the Royal Courts of Justice? Really encourage everyone to go because you can, you sit in a public gallery, and it is an eye opener because it's like going back in time. It's really wild. It's mad. So that's a mad space. And then my actual office space is filled with wonderful but very busy colleagues and random posters of campaigns. We've supported posters around the Legal Aid Agency because most of the time we're battling the Legal Aid Agency for funding for our clients. So, yeah, it's kind of that.

HJ
And is there a particular book that had a significant impact on the way you approach your work?

SO
There's a book that always comes to mind when I think about anything to do with the work I'm doing and campaigning in general. And that's a book that I read about 10 years ago or so about Sylvia Pankhurst, who was a suffragette, and I'm founder of The East London Federation of Suffragettes. And the book's by a woman called Catherine Connolly. And the reason I find the book really interesting is, firstly, it's really fascinating to see the transition of Sylvia Pankhurst as just an, just, I say just, I don't mean just, but an artist, first and foremost, an artist. And then her transition to travelling around the country and learning about class, traveling to the USA and then equally when she came back to London to organise communities, you know, all like working class communities. The lessons in that book, the writing from Sylvia Pankhurst, just resonated with me really strongly because it really kind of details what can happen. For example, if you're a paid organiser in something and you're organising with a community that is in all essence, obviously voluntary, they're not being paid for their time. And the balance of that power. And actually to be very aware of that and to be very respectful, that, for example, you're in a space that you're being paid or. Or your day job, is that you can be educated, you have time to read reports, you have time to do that, you have to have a serious respect for the communities you're working with. Because you do walk into that space and you are already on some pedestal. And so being really aware of that, and Sylvia Pankhurst was really aware of that. And I'm in awe of some of those lessons and seeing that written down and going, that really speaks to everything I do today. So, yeah, that book was really important, so I recommend everyone to read it. It's really cool.

HJ
Yeah. And amazing how universal those lessons still seem to be. Like 100 years ago.

SO
Yeah, 100%.

HJ
Yeah. If there was one device that you could invent which would aid your work and the world around you, what would it be?

SO
Yeah, I was thinking about this. Oh, the possibilities. Yeah. Okay, this is what I think. This is what I've settled on. So a pair of glasses, right, that you put on and then if you look at a report or a book or something, you read it in an instant.

HJ
Oh, the dream.

SO
The dream. But, but, but the reason it's a pair of glasses, really specifically is you don't always have to do that because it can be really nice to read a nice book and go on that journey. But sometimes you're like, you know, knowledge is power. And equally, maybe those glasses would also inspire all sorts of people or maybe people that struggle with reading to read, because, yeah, like, literacy and reading is so important. So, yeah, that's, that's so a bit of laziness there. But, you know, not too much.

HJ
I feel like this could become a reality. Some form of a better version of Google Glasses, ChatGPT.

SO
Suttin, suttin. Yeah.

HJ
But owned by the people. So, switching the focus to architecture. Where do you live now?

SO
So I live in Tottenham. Yeah. And a flat, flat in Tottenham.

HJ
Yeah. And is there one hidden building or space that you'd recommend people to visit in London? Or maybe Glasgow?

SO
Oh, I've thrown Glasgow on it. Yeah. Do you know what? I'll stick, I'll stick, I'll stick with my, I don't know if this is, this isn't really secret. It's not really hidden, but it's still, I think, my favourite place, which is Oasis Swimming Pool in Covent Garden. It just gives me so much happiness, like, just the best. Do you know what I mean? Like being surrounded by just estates and you're in the middle of London and you're outside in a pool.

HJ
It really is an oasis.

SO
I just love it. It just is so cool. And the sun deck is so cool.

HJ
Yeah, yeah. And amazing people as well, hanging out on the sun deck in that. There was a little, like, steam room.

SO
Yeah, I know. It's back open. It was, I think it was closed for a while. But don't worry, everyone, it's back on. It's back on.

HJ
Yes. That's a great choice. If you could live in any building in the world, which one would you choose to inhabit?

SO
I love the Barbican so much. I love it. So I don't know if I would be able to live there my whole life. Probably not. But I would have a lot of joy for a good chunk of time living in a flat at the Barbican and just being so cool.

HJ
It would be amazing. Would you like to be up in a tower or in the kind of around the lake?

SO
I'll take around the lake.

HJ
Yeah. We'll see what we can do.

SO
I'll love that. Thank you.

HJ
If you could visit one piece of architecture that no longer exists, so what would it be?

SO
Yeah, again, maybe I'm cheating a little bit. Let's see. But in, so I learned to swim in a swimming pool and a place called Govanhill on the south side of Glasgow and it's called Govanhill Baths, right. And it closed. When did it close? Was it in 2000, 2001 or something? And I swear, like, this is true. Look at it. You know, look it up online. There was street battles over the closure of this pool. It was so important to the community, like fighting tooth and nail, really, for it. And it's remained closed for many, many years and there's been, like, a community trust around it. I think it's about to reopen as, like a space. But equally, I'd want to, you know, visit it at a time when it was a community asset swimming pool, because it meant so much to everyone and I learned to swim there.

HJ
Yeah. I do think community pools do mean a lot to people and they are super important. Yeah. And I feel like, especially after Covid. Well, just when everyone's been reflecting on the importance of, like, exercise and having access to swimming pools is actually amazing.

SO
And they're all, they're, you know, especially the older pools. They're really pretty, they're really nice. Yeah.

HJ
I do think there might be a bit of a resurgence in, in pools and lidos.

SO
Yeah.

HJ
There's a colleague at the AA called Naina Gupta and she is actually doing a lot of research into them. She's about to release a book, so maybe I'll send it your way.

SO
Please do. Yeah, definitely.

HJ
Is there a particular landscape or an outdoor place that's meaningful to you?

SO
Yeah. So, my dear dad passed away last year, which is very sad. But we've got a little plaque for him a place called Paradise, that place is actually Parkhead, which is Celtic football club’s stadium, Paradise. We've got a little plaque for him outside and it's a very special place now for me and the family. And so, I had to say Parkhead.

HJ
And if you could remove a popular building or a piece of art from its pedestal, what would it be? What would you choose to replace it with?

SO
So something, well, okay. So what came to mind about just removing any bit of architecture is again coming back to Glasgow. A massive road, a massive motorway was built through Glasgow. It's the M8 and it really tore through the city, and I think it's still called, like people refer to it as the ‘scar of the city’ or ‘scar of Glasgow’ because it just really rampaged through and it had a massive impact on many areas, including what you would think the destruction of homes. So I would click my fingers and try and get rid of that in a heartbeat and replace it with those council homes and social homes and really important green space.

HJ
That's a great choice.

SO
It's a shocker. Again, worth looking up. It's a very interesting history of people opposing it and all sorts.

HJ
Yeah, I think I might have, I think I have seen it actually, in Glasgow and it is quite.

SO
Oh, you will see, you'll have seen it. It's everywhere.

HJ
Trying to cross it.

SO
Trying to cross it. Monstrous mountainous. Monstrous and mad.

HJ
But I feel like that speaks to lots of kind of 60s development when they really prioritise roads.

SO
Yeah.

HJ
You know all the flyovers in London.

SO
Yes.

HJ
Elephant and Castle.

SO
Yeah, yeah, all that.

HJ
So, turning to culture, what do you consider to be your perfect meal?

SO
Yeah, okay, this is where my head's at, right. It's definitely going to change at some point. Do you know what I really love, right? I love a really good salad with fish, but it has to have really nice bread and butter on the side. Just, just all of that, like the olives, the every,

HJ
In a kind of Mediterranean vibe?

SO
Definitely cheese, Give me cheese.

HJ
Nice.

SO
That would just make me happy. But yeah, the bread and butter, is like really has to be, has to be there as well. Definitely, yeah.

HJ
If you had to recommend a non-architecture book to architects, what would it be?

SO
Yeah, I, okay. This is a book I recommend to everybody. So that includes that group of people. I read a book by a woman called Jodi Dean, which is called Comrade. It's actually a very attractive looking book. It's a very cool looking book and it's all about, it's not a very long book, but it's all about kind of political belonging and coming together to organise and what the word comrade means and things like that. And I just think it's a really good read for everyone because I think that people do feel quite isolated and these times are tough. So seeing some of the kind of importance and the positives of organising in any way, may be political it may be, you know, as part of your school, as part of your, is a really cool thing to do, and I think it can help all of us. Yeah.

HJ
Amazing. I'll look that one up, too. Thank you. What was the last cultural event you attended? Could be film or cinema.

SO
Yeah, I went to the cinema the other night. Love going to the cinema. Actually, I went to, it's a cinema in Covent Garden called the Garden.

HJ
Okay.

SO
It's like art deco. It's quite interesting art deco cinema. Anyway, I went to see Memoirs of a Snail. Have you seen this advertised?

HJ
I haven't seen, I saw one poster and I thought, what an amazing title. But what is it about?

SO
It's legit quite good. Like, what's the stop motion? Is that right? I think it is, yeah. It's, and it, but it's like a 15. So it's like, oh, we're presenting, like, this is a kid's thing. It's not a kid's thing. Yeah. It's about a young lassie going through her troubles. Bad things happen. But she's got interesting takes on it. I'd recommend it. It's cool.

HJ
And where does the snail come in?

SO
So she loves snails. She really loves snails. That's her thing. She has a shell. You know, she hides. That's her. She hides from the world.

HJ
It's like a bit like a metaphor,

SO
All of that stuff.

HJ
Intriguing.

SO
It's quite sweet. Yeah.

HJ
Okay, I'll try and see it. If you could inhabit one film or artwork, what would it be? Would it be the snail?

SO
Well, funnily enough related to the snail. I mean, I love Wallace and Gromit. Like, a lot like early Wallace and Gromit. Yeah. Not even. Not the new ones. Not so much the new ones. But, like, The Wrong Trousers and all that just feels. Or, I don't know, something by Wes Anderson. I mean, that's always, like, sumptuous. I don't know.

HJ
Yeah. So you like stop motion?

SO
Yeah, it's just. Or like the, like, plasticity.

HJ
Yeah, I actually was lucky enough to visit, there's an amazing studio in, it's in Hackney, actually, called Arch Model Studio. Arch Model Studio. And they make the models and the puppets for the Wes Anderson films.

SO
Oh, cool.

HJ
And it's incredible to visit because they, they have all the models of, like, the Isle of Dogs, for instance, all the dogs. And they can show you how they, like, change the faces. And I mean, it's so intricate because each, you know, each shot they're like changing the mouth, changing the hand. But yeah, amazing, amazing artists and people.

SO
Can you go. Do you have to be invited to go to it?

HJ
Well, we. I went to visit for an exhibition that we did about architectural models.

SO
Oh, brilliant. Okay.

HJ
But I don't know. They were lovely. I'm sure you could get in touch and, yeah, really incredible stuff. What TV show have you most rewatched?

SO
My go to shut my brain off TV show is a Scottish TV show called Still Game, which, if you have not seen it, is just legendary. Like, you know, grew up with it, everybody watches it. It's set in Glasgow. It's actually set on an estate that I used to live on when I was 17, so it's a wee bit home. And it just is about two pensioners living their life. But it's just, it's just very funny, very Glaswegian humour.

HJ
Amazing, I’ve never heard of this.

SO
It is so good. Actually, actually they've got in like series 10 or 11 or something. The episode is about them trying to save a block of flats and, like getting a wee campaign together.

HJ
Were you watching, thinking I would have organised differently?

SO
Well, well, I think if I remember correctly. If I remember correctly, I think the episode ends with one of their pals accidentally sleeping in the flat because he got too drunk and the developer being outside with, like the big red button, being like that, demolishing. Boom. So, it was good fun. Yeah, definitely worth watching.

HJ
I will seek it out.

SO
You can get it on BBC.

HJ
Okay. Nice.

SO
Yeah.

HJ
What's the first piece of music that really impacted or resonated with you?

SO
My parents used to listen to T. Rex a lot and so I've got that kind of ingrained.

HJ
Yeah.

SO
And then, you know, Robbie Williams. I don't know. Do you know what I mean?

HJ
You probably have a lot to choose from, considering you worked in the music industry.

SO
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But when I was, you know, when I was a kid, like, Robbie Williams was big. All Saints were big. Spice Girls, you know, so it was like the golden era.

HJ
It was big.

SO
It was a big, big deal.

HJ
And what music, if any, do you listen to when you're working now.

SO
I start with BBC Radio 6 and then I turn it off about, what was it about 11 o' clock when it turns into a party or whatever it is, just turns into a club and I'm like, nah, nah, I can't do this. Need the Zen mode, need the Zen modes. And then I do, I do delve into classical. I do. It's a cliche, but it works. Stream of, you know, when you're really in something, it's really a nice thing to listen to.

HJ
I really struggle to work and listen to anything with words because I just end up typing what I hear.

SO
Yeah.

HJ
So, yeah, definitely have to switch to classical or just more kind of atmospheric. Yeah. What was the last post that you made on social media and on what platform?

SO
Well, I don't do social media. I don't do social media, and I think it's not even, I don't even, I don't think I'm even self-righteous about it. I think I'm just allergic to my phone now because, you know, and it's like we speak in the job, in my job and I campaign at the weekend. You speak to a lot of people all the time and sometimes you're like, well, I want to put it that way. Yeah, I don't want to, I can't be bothered speaking to anyone else. So yeah, but I mean, through work I contribute to stuff. We're just, we have just started a Public Interest Law Centre Instagram.

HJ
Okay.

SO
There might be a TikTok on the way that exists. So look it up. There you go.

HJ
We will look it up. Thank you. So moving on to slightly more political. What do you think of the current Labour government's changes to planning regulations and their aim to deliver 1.5 million homes through some mandatory house building targets for councils?

SO
So I'm definitely not the first person to have said that it would be very unlikely if they achieve this. But, you know, let's put that to one side. I think that what's getting lost in this narrative is the amount of homes that already exist, the amount of empty homes. If we focus on London, there are over 100 council estates that are threatened with demolition. There's a really good website called Estate Watch, actually, that tracks these things, tracks these estates and, you know, a focus on what's happening on those estates, what's happening to people who are decanted, so moved off those estates years ago and what's happening to people that still live on those estates. The government, to my mind, is ignoring these communities, ignoring these amazing structures exist and that they should be the answer to housing. Also, the key question is really affordability of housing. It gets pulled into supply all the time. What about affordability? A bit of research we commissioned last year found that when an estate is demolished, typically with the redeveloped estate, what goes on that land after social rents, council rents are £80 a week more expensive straight off the bat. So that's, you know, in essence what demolition and redevelopment equals. But we're not talking about that. Also, one other thing that I learned the other day that's quite interesting is that there's an issue, certainly in London, whereby, you know, developers are building out affordable housing units as part of a Section 106 agreement that they get. Section 106 agreement building out the housing units that will be affordable housing. And providers of social housing have to buy those units. That's how it works, housing associations, councils, buy the units. They're not buying the units. Why are they not buying the units? Because they're in such poor shape. So the quality of the buildings are so bad that, you know, these homes that could be social rent homes are sitting there and they're not being bought. And I think the GLA, the Greater London Authority, released a report about it recently. And I watched, I saw some news reports about it. But again, that's not featured as part of this organisation, part of this discussion.

HJ
Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. I do feel like, you know, it's so often that the rhetoric becomes ‘build more’. And you're completely right that there's, I just look around and I feel like there's so much building going on, so many new developments, but they look so empty. And even if they are built exactly, who gets to live in them? And there's a development that's kind of up for, well, people are contesting it at the moment in Peckham.

SO
Right.

HJ
So a big development there. And I think it's something like they are developing 877 homes, 77 of them will be affordable. And then you even wonder what affordable means because it used to be 80% of market rate. I believe the market rate could be extortionate. So that doesn't mean anything.

SO
So we've got a piece of litigation on behalf of a resident in temporary accommodation in East London against the Mayor of London that essentially boils down to this conflation of social rent homes with any affordable rent. Now, the reason those are categorically different or the kind of main reason they're different, is that there's a formula that calculates social rent. A other affordable housing products, London affordable rent, London living rent, shared ownership, intermediate housing, that no matter what price that's at cost that's at now, it can go up to 80% of market rate. And it's that black and white. And our case is that the mayor's just completely conflated these two housing products and waved through a plan. But it does show that it's so important to ask, what are you talking, like, what does this mean? What are you talking about?

HJ
I also believe we have the highest number of families in temporary accommodation. And if they can't afford to be in these new homes, then what's the point in building the new homes?

SO
Exactly.

HJ
And I was just going to say it's another conversation that's had especially in architecture schools at the moment and in the sort of the architectural sphere, because there's so much interest in retrofit, because obviously there's a huge carbon cost to building new homes and we have all this housing stock, like you mentioned, but if you build a new development, you're exempt from paying VAT. If you retrofit, you're not.

SO
We're investigating a legal challenge right now on that point. I'll speak to you after.

HJ
Oh, wow. Yeah, I’d love to hear more.

SO
Let's see where that goes. We've just commissioned research and we're just in the phase of getting some funding to get all the research that's been done in one place. So we should definitely talk about that 100%.

HJ
Because I feel like that is the huge stumbling block.

SO
Like, mind blowing. I think I learned about that a couple of years ago and I was like, no, that can't be right. Oh, no, it is right.

HJ
Yeah, me too. I was like, surely not.

SO
I know.

HJ
I feel like we could go on.

SO
We should, another time.

HJ
But is there a lesson or a belief that was hard for you to unlearn?

SO
I think that in the last couple of years I have kind of unlearned that to be all knowledgeable is not fully powerful. Because actually the power comes when you go, I don't know what you mean. I don't understand, understand this. Can you explain this? Can you explain that? And that's actually a hard place to get to, especially, you know, if you're in whatever, intelligent law circles, whatever. And, you know, I'm really inspired by some of my colleagues who have got so much knowledge, and they go, I don't know what you're talking about. Can you explain this? And I think that's been like a lesson that's been kind of hard to unlearn to be like, no, be confident enough to say I haven't got a clue. Yeah. And that hopefully, hopefully is something I'm taking on board.

HJ
That's a really good lesson. Thank you. We're going to finish with a quick-fire round. Are you ready?

SO
Go ahead.

HJ
So are you a morning person or a night owl?

SO
Night owl.

HJ
What are you reading currently?

SO
A book by, it’s about, on Palestinian liberation by Ilan Pappé, and I need to get the other author's name right because, because it would be really bad if I didn't, Ramzy Baroud. And it's just a collection of essays from all sorts of people about all the different shades of liberation, including, I think probably architecture. Then there are all sorts and it's a source of utter inspiration and to remind us all that we should be inspired by, you know, Palestinians as well as be enraged for them.

HJ
Do you have a guilty pleasure?

SO
Peanut butter. 100%. 100%.

HJ
Is that guilty?

SO
The amount I eat of it is unacceptable. It's really bad. It's like my companion. It's bad.

HJ
A jar in your bag each day.

SO
I'm telling you.

HJ
What is your most prized possession?

SO
It's my dad's poetry book from when he was like late teens, twenties. So, old poetry book and it's got some scribbles from his younger brothers of them learning to write. It's very funny.

HJ
Was it his poetry?

SO
It was his poetry, yeah. It's very, very. Yeah, I love it.

HJ
What was your first experience of the AA?

SO
Well, when I came to speak here a little while ago, it was very good. It was about, you know, issues around consultation and community. It was really interesting. Yeah. Met really good people.

HJ
And if you could describe the AA in one word, what would it be?

SO
Well, forward thinking is not one word.

HJ
Put a hyphen in.

SO
Yeah, put a hyphen in. But you know, I'm kind of surprised that I'm sitting here, and I think it's really cool that those links are being made

HJ
Brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Saskia, for joining us today.

SO
Brilliant. Thanks.

Thanks for listening to this episode. AirAA podcasts are developed, recorded, mixed and edited by the Architectural Association from our home on Bedford Square in central London. To find more episodes, view the show notes and explore other AirAA series, visit air.aaschool.ac.uk. The views and opinions expressed in these podcasts are those of the individuals involved in each episode. Opinions expressed by the hosts and guests can change at any time and are not representative of the AA.